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*Official* South Africa in Pakistan

shortpitched713

International Captain
What makes you think Yousuf is any chance of playing at all, by the way? I thought it was completely established that he was going to the ICL and hence would not be selected for Pakistan at all. Razzaq announced his retirement as well, did he not?
Forgot about Razzaq being ICL when I was thinking of who to replace Shoaib with. And there still might be a chance that a last minute deal can be made with Yousuf, if not all of the ICL players. Probably won't happen when the South Africa series comes around, but I'm fairly confident we'll at least have Yousuf back by the time of the series against India.
 

shortpitched713

International Captain
I'd give Butt a proper run at Test cricket and let him open with Umar. Then drop Malik down the order.

Salman Butt
Taufeeq Umar
Yasir Hameed
Mohammad Yousuf - MUST bat at 4, IMO.
Younis Khan
Shoaib Malik
Kamran Akmal (wk)
Shoaib Akhtar
Umar Gul
Danish Kaneria
Mohammad Asif

I'd much prefer that lineup. Because I have a lot more faith in Butt scoring in tough conditions than Afridi. And also I think you need specialist openers for Tests. Pakistan gives up on openers too quickly. But that goes without saying.
Butt has been pretty dire in Test matches, but I wouldn't necessarily be against giving him another run. And Younis batting at 5 is pretty much unprecedented. Hmm.. I'm not certain, but I'm pretty Yousuf has batted at 5 recently and I don't think it really seemed to affect him. Ditto with Younis batting at 4.
 

shortpitched713

International Captain
I'm not certain, but I'm pretty Yousuf has batted at 5 recently and I don't think it really seemed to affect him. Ditto with Younis batting at 4.
They did it in SA recently. Younis averaged 36.2 from 5 innings, and Yousuf averaged 37.75 from 4. Hm... maybe it would be better to stick with them at 3 and 4.
 

Mr Mxyzptlk

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Because it'd be making the same mistake yet again: dropping a player after one bad series after realising that the last player you dropped perhaps shouldn't have been. If Hafeez was dropped for Butt, Butt would probably have two good series and one bad one, and then people would say "Pakistan's openers are dire. Why did they drop Hafeez again?" - and the cycle would continue. If I was picking the team right now, I'd probably open with Butt and Hafeez anyway, so it is somewhat of a mute point for mine.
But I think keeping Butt out of the team is an equally bad mistake. Again, I reiterate, I'm not calling shots between Butt and Hafeez. At most it comes down to Taufeeq or Hafeez in my mind. And I'm not arguing that one is better than the other. All I'm arguing is that Butt has to play Tests.
 

Mr Mxyzptlk

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Forgot about Razzaq being ICL when I was thinking of who to replace Shoaib with. And there still might be a chance that a last minute deal can be made with Yousuf, if not all of the ICL players. Probably won't happen when the South Africa series comes around, but I'm fairly confident we'll at least have Yousuf back by the time of the series against India.
I really can't see the PCB truly turning their back on Mohammad Yousuf. The board will everything in its power to get him back in Pakistan colours, even if that means expressing a blatant double standard.

And Razzaq retired before any genuine talk of the ICL. He retired, seemingly because he was left out of the World Twenty20 Cup squad.
 

Mr Mxyzptlk

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Butt has been pretty dire in Test matches, but I wouldn't necessarily be against giving him another run. And Younis batting at 5 is pretty much unprecedented. Hmm.. I'm not certain, but I'm pretty Yousuf has batted at 5 recently and I don't think it really seemed to affect him. Ditto with Younis batting at 4.
Before Pakistan's last tour of England (ie his last 4 innings), he'd scored 420 runs from 10 innings with some good consistency (50% of his innings over 35, with 3x50 and 1x100 in the 10 innings). Hardly dire, IMO. It's like Prince was saying, two good series and a bad series gets you sacked when you're a Pakistani opener. But he looks a good player and has had some decent success in the past.

Take out Bangladesh and Zimbabwe from their records, and Butt, Hafeez, Taufeeq are very similar. So in terms of performance, none have particular distanced themselves from your definition of "dire". It's just that Hafeez and Taufeeq have seen more of Bangladesh and Zimbabwe. And of the three, Butt looks the best player IMO.

Regarding Younis, you need your best batsman in at 3 or 4. And the best batsman is Yousuf, but Hameed HAS to bat at 3 if he plays, IMO. So that means I'd have Yousuf at 4 and Younis is a good enough batsman that he should be able to adjust to 5. He seems to bat pretty well with Malik too. Besides, I think he scored a 90 against New Zealand early in his career, at 5 or 6. :p
 
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Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
They did it in SA recently. Younis averaged 36.2 from 5 innings, and Yousuf averaged 37.75 from 4. Hm... maybe it would be better to stick with them at 3 and 4.
Honestly don't think that proves much - the bowling was just better (and in Yousuf's case the catching) than it had been for the previous however-long-it's-been.

I'd be fine with either of them batting five TBH. And would still like to see Inzy in there if it hasn't been ruled-out.
 

shortpitched713

International Captain
Regarding Younis, you need your best batsman in at 3 or 4. And the best batsman is Yousuf, but Hameed HAS to bat at 3 if he plays, IMO. So that means I'd have Yousuf at 4 and Younis is a good enough batsman that he should be able to adjust to 5. He seems to bat pretty well with Malik too. Besides, I think he scored a 90 against New Zealand early in his career, at 5 or 6. :p
Yeah, fair enough I suppose. Younis though, barring last year, has been as big of a run scorer for us as Yousuf, and I'd be probably be as much if not more concerned about him dropping down to five as I would be with Yousuf. Its going to be interesting to see what they actually do though, and if they can find the right mix with the likely accommodation of Hameed.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
You can do that all you want, there's no denying the fact that Yousuf was dropped an absurd amout between December 2005 and October 2006, and that the SAfricans didn't drop him at all in that series.
 

Mr Mxyzptlk

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He was the first one though, by the chicken and eggs logic you had earlier mentioned. And yes it was a tongue in cheek remark, as was correctly identified.
But he's also a very poor batsman. I'm talking about batsmen who look capable of scoring runs. And I've seen Imran Nazir bat several times, and he has rarely ever looked a competent batsman. He's had one big innings against a decent attack (v WI in 2000).

I'm talking about openers who didn't do too badly, and looked Test-capable. Imran Nazir is marginally better than Dwayne Smith, IMO.
 

Perm

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Tough choice when discussing Pakistani openers IMO. You've got Salman Butt, Mohammad Hafeez and Shoaib Malik all in mix, and I suppose Taufeeq Umar and Imran Farhat should be in there somewhere. Providing Malik can bat at #6, I'd be tempted to have Butt and Hafeez opening, as they look like the best pairing Pakistan have at the current point in time. Farhat would probably be the next cab of the rank, while I hope Taufeeq isn't anywhere near the team.

Hafeez and Farhat both had poor series against South Africa in trying conditions, but that shouldn't be enough to write them off IMO. Salman Butt was pretty good up until the home series against India in 2005-2006 where he really struggled, but has continued to score heavily in domestic cricket and deserves another shot.

Hafeez
Butt
Younis
Yousuf
Hameed
Malik (c)
Akmal (wk)

That would be my Pakistan top 7, I think Yasir Hameed can bat at #5 and I'm pretty sure the PCB will try to lure Mohammad Yousuf back to play Test cricket, if they aren't able to then we may see Inzamam back in the reckoning.
 
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