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Thread: NZ Top Order Woes

  1. #1
    International Debutant Kimbo's Avatar
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    NZ Top Order Woes

    Something has to be done about the NZ top order problem. The selection of the world cup squad makes it difficult. Any suggestions?

    Last night the top order was:
    Fleming
    Sinclair
    Harris
    Cairns
    Styris
    Vincent

    then McCullum, Mills, Adams, Tuffey, Bond.
    Fleming, and Sinclair are both no.3s. Harris is ideally a no 7 or 8. Cairns should be at 5 or 6. Styris could possibly be a 4. and Vincent IMO could bat higher, hasnt really established himself in a certain role yet.

    Normally Astle is opening, he desperately needs a partner, and I dont think Fleming is the man. And Sinclairs poor technique counts him out against the new ball too. There are a few possiblities in there, none great but maybe wortha go. Maybe Vincent, since he has opened in test matches, he could probably get the strike rotating while Astle has a go. Maybe McCullum in a few years, at provincial level he opens to good effect.

    I don't think Sinclair and Fleming can be in the team together, they are both no 3s.

    Possible batting order:
    Astle
    Vincent
    Fleming
    Styris
    Cairns
    McCullum
    Harris
    Mills
    Adams
    BOND
    Tuffey

    And I think guys like Adams (and Bond of course) could come in as pinch hitters if we were going well pressing for high totals.
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  2. #2
    International Debutant Kimbo's Avatar
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    AND macca. I think they need to bring macca into the last game, if he gets a decent score I am sure he will get back into form. He needs a bit of confidence. They should take a gamble. He has the talent, just needs one decent knock i reckon.
    They cant take him to South Africa as he is- failing in provincial cricket. They have made a commitment to him, so have to do their best to get his confidence back.
    and if he fails... well.... bugger! but he is so due!

  3. #3
    Rik
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    The problems with the NZ Top Order? Just look at the Indian Top Order...

    Both have had their problems and it's mostly due to the pitches.
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    20...that's a rather big number :(:(:(

  4. #4
    International Debutant Kimbo's Avatar
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    No, New Zealand genuinely have a problem, we have a team of middle order batsmen.

    And I forgot to mention Oram. umm... chuck him in the middle order too!

    He is probably going to take Mills out. slot him in at 6 and push the others down.


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    I have said all along that NZ need another opener, if nothing else then to protect the prolification of middle & lower order all rounders selected. As Crowe said - there are about 7 players who could slot into the number 6 / 7 positions.

    At this stage with the players selected for the WC, my main priority for an opening partner for Astle would be - protect the middle & lower order from early exposure while the pitch & ball still have 'life'!!!!!! The all rounders can not function & score runs if they are exposed too early - hence the low averages & poor scores posted by the top 5!!!!

    The 2 from the squad I would use as alternative openers would be Sinclair or Vincent, as both have experience there. Fleming is too important to continue to be sacrificed in the role. However it appears that the selectors have settled on a lower middle order role for Vincent to score quick singles in the last 3rd of an innings - much the same as Harris used to do.

    I am loath to drop Sinclair as he has scored tons in the OD game as opener, has shown some ability to stay at the crease even tho' he is not in good touch, and has the best average of the Kiwi batsmen this series. Even tho' it was painful to watch & he was unable to score / rotate the strike, at least he stuck around for a while & saw off the first bowling changes!!!!

    As you would have seen on my earlier posts I also agree re Cairns & Harris positions, although I would possibly bracket Harris & Mills rather than Mills & Oram. For me Oram would warrant selection ahead of either Mills or Harris.

    Astle
    Sinclair
    Fleming
    Styris
    McMillan
    Cairns
    Vincent
    Oram
    McCullum
    Vettori
    Bond

    we only have 5 specialist batsmen in the squad & IMO we have to use them all!
    if Cairns can not bowl then move Vincent to replace Sinclair & bring in Tuffey. If the pitch shows no sign of any turn then bring in Adams or Mills for Vettori, depending on how the batting is going - for me Mills is more of a bowler & Adams a hitter.

    I would only look to Harris if he shows he is able to stick around and rotate the strike (which he was unable to do at the ICC tourneyment), and if he continued to bowl seam up so that he had 2 bowling options. Another time I would select him would be as a seam up bowler if Astle was not playing. I am concerned that the seam pace attack has too much of a same pace about it (apart from Bond) & lacks variety without the options of Vettori or Astle.


  6. #6
    International Debutant Kimbo's Avatar
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    I dont think you can leave Andre Adams out of the side if he is fit. He is a match winner for NZ. He goes hot and cold, but he takes wickets and score runs fast.
    Its tough because we have so many allrounders of this mould- Oram, Styris, Cairns(on a slightly different level :P ).
    It then becomes a form game.
    We bat so far down the order- heck look at Bond. So then it is guys like Sinclair and Vincent that have to watch out. Vincent adds so much in the field though.
    I really believe that Sinclair is going to be pushed out of the side, or at least should be. He has been doing a reasonable job- but it is made to look better because nobody else is in form. His technique still needs a lot of work, he hasnt batted all that convincingly either. When he comes up against top bowling attacks he will really struggle IMO. Hes just got a decent eye- and thats fine against bangladesh...

  7. #7
    Cricket Web Owner James's Avatar
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    I'm stuck on this as well. Is it a matter of just throwing an all-rounder into the opening spot for the world cup and see how they go:

    Astle
    Oram/Adams
    Sinclair
    Fleming
    Styris
    Vincent
    Cairns
    McCullum
    Oram/Adams
    Bond
    Tuffey

    How about that?

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    you mean to use Adams as a pinch hitter opener like we did with Greatbatch??????? I would not use Oram for this as IMO he has too much batting credentials in domestic cricket to be sacrificed this way. I'd rather groom him to take over Cairns' role.

    I note you have left McMillan out of your team - is that because of form????? In that case we are going in with only 4 recognised batsmen!!!!!

    Adams is a match winner no doubt, but he does run hot & cold. Furthermore at this point in time his batting style & success is on a par with McCullum, who must be in the team as specialist 'keeper. To me there would be 2 hot & cold players so far as batting goes, and Bond can cover for either of them as a pinch hitter!

    So far as Sinclair goes he currently has the best form so far as current average & ability to stay at the crease goes. Why would you drop the one batsman that is the best of a bad bunch at the moment??????

    As I said earlier with only 5 batsmen in the squad 'stickability' at the top is currently more important than runs or run rates. I don't care if he looks poor & doesn't score well, so long as the protection is there to allow the all rounders to do their thing. Once the pitch & ball have settled he can always be told to have a thrash to enable the allrounders like Cairns & Styris to have time to build their innings. The big problem at the moment is that the top are getting knocked off too early!!!!!


  9. #9
    Cricket Web Owner James's Avatar
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    Yeah - I think we have to try something - Adams might provide a quick fire 30 in a game. Better than Fleming making 2 off 25 balls and he can return to his place at 4 where he should be.

    McMillan just isn't right at the moment - leave Styris in there I think.

  10. #10
    International Debutant Kimbo's Avatar
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    I wouldn't say McCullum is like Adams. He isnt running hot and cold, he is a young player who is struggling with the step up to International cricket. He is getting there though, and he has guts.
    In the future I think McCullum could be an opener.
    Right now though I think Vincent should be given a go as Astle's opening partner- nothing to lose, as Fleming has proved time and time again that he can NOT open the batting.
    If Vincent got those quick singles going between Astles lusty hitting we could have some very good starts- just a thought.
    All Vincent needs to sort out is that thrusting the bat at deliveries outside off stump getting caught behind early on. I just know he can do it.
    James: In your side I think Cairns is too low down. Although I must say- his footwork of late has been.. umm... err... non-existant.

  11. #11
    Cricket Web Owner James's Avatar
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    I think Vincent is perfect in the middle order - working round the singles when the field is out - I would leave him there.

    Good point with Cairns - he's my side now:

    Astle
    Oram/Adams
    Sinclair
    Fleming
    Cairns
    Vincent
    Styris/Vettori - depending on conditions
    McCullum
    Oram/Adams
    Bond
    Tuffey

  12. #12
    International Debutant Kimbo's Avatar
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    yea i know vincent is good in the middle order- i just cant see anyone else who can do well against the new ball...
    Maybe McCullum should be tried, he can open, and he isnt a big loss if he gets out cheaply. Since he isnt really a number 7 or 8. He isnt a big hitter but has his shots on him. He is quick between the wickets, maybe he could be the strike rotater...

  13. #13
    Eyes not spreadsheets marc71178's Avatar
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    Crikey, never realised what a lack of specialist batsmen you guys have!

    Is there no-one coming through?

    What about Richardson?
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  14. #14
    Rik
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    Originally posted by marc71178
    Crikey, never realised what a lack of specialist batsmen you guys have!

    Is there no-one coming through?

    What about Richardson?
    He tried a few times and failed. He's like a Bangar, he is good at playing gritty innings in Tests but he's a bit suspect in OD because his technique is mainly a defensive one.

    People will point to Bangar's quick unbeaten 50odd he scored a little while ago, but he's not done much since, not just in NZ.

  15. #15
    International Debutant Kimbo's Avatar
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    Yeah we lack specialist batsmen, but we do alright- i mean we bat right down to 11. BOND.
    sorry i am obsessed now. but how many number 11s in world cricket go out and make 31 off 15 balls.

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