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Can Australia survive without Warne and McGrath???

hourn

U19 Cricketer
chris.hinton said:
People forget that Australia have not got a young Bowler at all

Doug Bollinger (1981) - i actually dont really think he is that good, but he picked up 4/50 in the last Pura Milk Cup game. Will almost definetaly not play test cricket but he's still young and he could put pressure on the test players in the future.

Nathan Bracken (1977) - definetaly going to be one player really pushing for a test spot in the future. Probably not for a few more years yet though.

Don Nash (1978) - looks like hes about 40 but is only 24. Has some pace and can hit out in the lower order. Better bowler than Bollinger, but probably won't get a shot at test cricket.

Scott Brant (1983) - along with Paul Rofe i recokn he is the best young quick bowler in Australia. Left armer, has some toe for 19 years of age and will definetaly be thinking of test cricket in the future.

Damien McKenzie (1980) - very underrated talent. Smooth action, hasn't had much success yet, but it will come. May get a shot at test cricket depending on his performance in FC cricket over the next 2 seasons.

Ashley Nofke (1977) - one of the next in lines for a test spot, if not the next in line of the quick bowlers.

Paul Rofe (1981) - huge talent. Had a great season last season, but not having as much success this season. I reckon he's going to be a sensation. Similar style to McGrath - doubt he'd be as good, but he is the more slower but deadly accurate type McGrath is.

Matthew Inness (1978) - has a very strange action and get sall his pace from his run-up. But he has got great stats, and at the end of the day its hard to argue with that. Weight of numbers has to eventually see Inness get a go someday. Not to sure if he'd be able to adjust to test cricket because of his action though.

What people are forgetting at the moment is that the current generation of cricketers have had their stay in the son longer than others (mainly because they are the first group to become paid fulltime pro cricketers), and this is delaying the FC appearances of some of the younger guys, and accordingly delaying their test appearances.

This, however is a good thing IMO. People will wait longer to play test cricket, and would have more cricketing experience on their heads before playing test cricket. But they will still play the same amount of matches as anyone else, because they will retire at a later time. Very few players will now make their test match debuts before they turn 27 - only the exceedingly talented players will. However, the players that make it will still play 80 or 100+ test matches, because they won't retire till they are in their mid 30's.

People might think its a bad thing, because our team will be constantly branded as too old, however cricket isn't the type of game were it becomes exceedingly harder to play once you reach 33. (i'm not saying it's not physical and doesn't get harder as you get older and more wear and tear occurs to your body, but its not like footy, where its nearly impossible to play once your past that age because of the damage you have sustained). It can be a good thing, because as I said, the players in the test team would've had more experience at all levels of cricket, and can bring that into the game, instead of coming into the game at 21/22 years of age and still a baby and not playing to their potential from the start. They'll be ready to play from the moment they get in there. One player i think who will be a great example of this right now is going to be Martin Love.

Lets say that this is a possible test team in 5 years time: Jimmy Maher, Michael Hussey, Ricky Ponting, Martin Love, Simon Katich, Michael Clarke, Sean Clingeleffer, Shane Watson, Nathan Hauritz, Matt Inness, Paul Rofe, Ashley Noffke.

Now look at their performances from the 2001/2002 first class season:
Jimmy Maher (33 in 5 years time) Qld - 19 inns, 1194 runs at 66.63, HS: 209, 3 100s, 6 50s.
Michael Hussey (32) WA - 18 inns, 621 runs at 34.50, HS: 100, 1 100, 4 50s.
Ricky Ponting (33) Tas/Aus - 14 inns, 733 runs at 66.33, HS: 157*, 3 100s 2 50s. (Played 56 tests by end of 2001/02)
Martin Love (33) Qld - 22 inns, 1189 runs at 62.57, HS: 202*, 2 100s, 6 50s.
Simon Katich (32) WA - 18 inns, 651 runs at 36.16, HS: 131, 1 100, 4 50s. (Played 1 test)
Michael Clarke (26) NSW - 18 inns, 633 runs at 39.00, HS: 132, 2 100s, 2 50s.
Sean Cligellefer (27) Tas - 15 inns, 517 runs at 47.00, HS: 140*, 2 100s, 1 50.
Shane Watson (26) Tas - 11 inns, 292 runs at 29.20, 22 wkts at 23.36, BB: 6/32, 2 5 inns, 0 10 mtch.
Nathan Haurtiz (26) Qld - 7 mtchs, 16 wkts at 30.25, BB: 4/119, 0 5 inns, 0 10 mtch.
Matt Inness (29) Vic - 7 mtchs, 31 wkts at 19.25, BB: 7/19, 1 5 inns, 1 10 mtch.
Paul Rofe (26) SOA - 11 mtchs, 41 wkts at 25.85, BB: 7/52, 3 5 inns, 1 10 mtch.
Ashley Noffke (30) Qld - 11 mtchs, 39 wkts at 28.46, BB: 5/31, 2 5 inns, 0 10 mtch.
Average Age: 29.41

Now look at the current Australian team and their performances in first class cricket 5 years ago:
Justin Langer (32) WA/Aus - 14 inns, 771 runs at 77.10, HS: 243*, 1 100, 3 50s. (Played 8 tests by the end of 96/97)
Matt Hayden (31) Qld/AusXI/Aus - 14 inns, 648 runs at 54.00, HS: 224, 2 100s, 2 50s. (Played 7 tests)
Ricky Ponting (28) Tas/Aus - 18 inns, 960 runs at 60.00, HS: HS: 159, 3 100s, 4 50s. (Played 6 tests)
Mark Waugh (37) NSW/Aus - 13 inns, 564 runs at 43.48, HS: 159, 1 100, 4 50s. (Played 63 tests)
Steve Waugh (37) NSW/Aus - 12 inns, 609 runs at 55.36, HS: 186*, 2 100s, 3 50s. (Played 89 tests)
Damien Martyn (31) WA - 20 inns, 701 runs at 36.89, HS: 108, 2 100s, 3 50s.
Adam Gilchrist (30) WA/AusXI - 17 inns, 591 runs at 39.40, HS: 108*, 1 100, 2 50s.
Brett Lee (26) - not playing FC cricket
Andy Bichel (32) Qld/AusXI/Aus - 6 mtchs, 30 wkts at 21.66, BB: 6/56, 4 5 inns, 1 10 mtch. (Played 2 tests)
Jason Gillespie (27) SOA/AusXI/Aus - 5 mtchs, 9 wkts at 37.77, BB: 5/64, 1 5 inns, 0 10 mtch. (Played 5 tests)
Shane Warne (33) Vic/Aus - 7 mtchs, 27 wkts at 29.44, BB: 4/95, 0 5 inns, 0 10 mtch. (Played 52 tests)
Glenn McGrath (30) NSW/Aus - 6 mtchs, 29 wkts at 19.55, BB: 5/50, 1 5 inns, 0 10 mtch. (Played 28 tests)
Average Age: 31.16

Now look at the perfomances of the two groups of players and there is very little difference, especially when you consider Hussey and Katich are proven performers as in season 2000/01 they both average over 50 and that 01/02 was an off season.

The bowling department is looking even stronger. There are 3 future players now who had really good seasons last season (Watson, Rofe and Inness) while Noffke has also proven he can play FC cricket. And Hauritz had an average 2001/02.

Compared to 5 years ago. Only McGrath and Bichel (who still hasn't really cracked the test team) had really good seasons, while Warne was obvioubsly a proven performer by then (just didn't have a great season). Gillespie had done nothing in FC cricket by then and Lee hadn't even played.

There is a problem in the fact that there were 9 guys with Test experience (even if 5 of them were under 10 games) compared to just the two in the future team.

Yes, that is a slight problem, but i believe that the FC Cricket competition (although never really being able to simulate the pressures of test cricket) is getting so strong now, that there is not that big of a jump from Sheffield Shield cricket into the Test arena.

But overall, Our future Australian team is looking like its going to be just as good as what the current Australian team is going to be if you base it on those performances, and there is no reason why you can't.
 

chris.hinton

International Captain
Hourn

That is an Impressive account of Australian Test Player, I think that the Aussies have a good Future
 

Top_Cat

Request Your Custom Title Now!
It is relatively economical when you consider that it's pretty rare we get real green-tops here and the pitches are of a high standard as a rule. Batsmen ARE going to get runs and to keep your economy-rate at around 3 an over, that's not bad. Also consider his strike-rate of 52; Noffke is an attacking bowler and will take wickets for you but will go for some runs occasionally too.

As for Rofe, his economy rate is 2.45. Not bad, eh?

And as a basis for comparison, I've looked up a couple of bowlers and their economy rates (first-class level only):

Andy Cad****: 3.03
Darren Gough: 3.18
Glenn McGrath: 2.52
Wasim Akram: 2.68
Jason Gillespie: 2.94
Dennis Lillee: 2.94 (Test econ; couldn't find FC econ.)

So I'd say that considering Noffke is quite an attacking bowler, he's not traveling too badly.
 
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hourn

U19 Cricketer
masterblaster said:
Well we saw what happens when McGrath and Warne and Gillespie are missing. Australia got thrashed.
no teams in the history of cricket except maybe the Windies of the mid 80's wouldn't struggle when losing their best 3 bowlers.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
hourn said:
no teams in the history of cricket except maybe the Windies of the mid 80's wouldn't struggle when losing their best 3 bowlers.
Well England were without arguably their 3 best bowlers and then some in the 5th Test and still won ;)
 

hourn

U19 Cricketer
marc71178 said:
Well England were without arguably their 3 best bowlers and then some in the 5th Test and still won ;)

Gough and Giles were gone yes, which i guess is reasonable, however Giles is really only in the team by default that it is considered standard to go in with a team with at least 1 spinner.

If England had four decent quicks, Giles wouldn't get a run.

Gough was a big loss, however Cad**** and Hoggard are your number 2 and 3 bowlers.

Flintoff is very average and i dont even reckon he should be in your starting line-up.

The future of Australian cricket is looking strong.

Basically if you think back 5 years, what did you think of the 11 players currently in the Australian team. From this team now, Gillespie had played very little test cricket, and not much FC cricket either. Lee had never played FC cricket, Gilchrist was an unknown, while Martyn was struggling and looking like he'd forever be one of the most unfulfilled talents in the game.
 

chris.hinton

International Captain
Hourn is talking sence here, it makes your realise what the aussies have got

Marc71178 i would not call Giles a Major bowler
 

Anil

Hall of Fame Member
Top_Cat said:
Neither did Glenn McGrath until he'd been playing Test cricket for two years.
Not every pacer with potential becomes a McGrath, does he, realistically speaking?

They've all got potential, as did McGrath in 1993. It just remains to be seen whether they can make the step up from potential to performance.
Exactly. There might be a big list of guys with tons of talent and truckloads of potential, but there are some big ifs in this equation which has to be satisfied because they can stand up and be counted.

Sure, quality is what DOES matter but hard work and consistency was what got Glenn to where he is today. If these guys get a chance and work like buggery to keep it, they might just do as well as McGrath.
"might" is the operative word. At the risk of repeating myself, not every bowler becomes a McGrath just because he is also from Australia.

To conclude, I think that when McGrath retires, Aus will definitely suffer in the short run. If half the potential that T_C is talking about is realised, they might get back to their dominant ways, but there is still some way to go before saying anything definite.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
chris.hinton said:
Hourn is talking sence here, it makes your realise what the aussies have got

Marc71178 i would not call Giles a Major bowler
No, he's only our number 1 spinner.
 

hourn

U19 Cricketer
marc71178 said:
No, he's only our number 1 spinner.


there lies the reason why England will not beat Australian in Australian for a long time.

Not meaning to have a go at the poms or anything, but that seriously is your big problem.

You don't have to have a Shane Warne, or even a leggie, but a good off spinner will hold his own at least.

And then after Giles, you've got Dawson!! :O Now he is really ordinary. Comes in with the big windmill action, arms go everywhere and just lets go of the ball without putting anything on it. Is realistically, a slow bowler.

You guys need to look at another avenue for your future spinners IMO.
 

Mr Mxyzptlk

Request Your Custom Title Now!
I think that in the future, England will have a fine pace attack and will be a formidable team especially against the Aussies (who aren't exspoing young bowlers). In such a scenario, they will not need a spinner per say.

BTW, concerning the promising Aussie talents (Bracken, Noffke etc.)...remember Hick and Ramprakash.
 

sasnoz

Banned
giles bowled well in the first test had good figures
and plus simon jones would have been a handful hes better than harmisson and he looked a real prospect
flintoff is a harmisson with better control

so there missing a england attack there
 

Langeveldt

Soutie
England have a huge amount of players in their domestic system and they only have 1 spinner worth his salt. Thats a pretty scary stat if you are thinking about winning the ashes anytime soon.

I cant get my head around Harmison, I think he is hugely over rated, Ive seen him this ashes and he doesnt look like he is capable of bowling fast without spraying it everywhere.
Lee, Shoaib at least they have some control
 

Rik

Cricketer Of The Year
sasnoz said:
giles bowled well in the first test had good figures
and plus simon jones would have been a handful hes better than harmisson and he looked a real prospect
flintoff is a harmisson with better control

so there missing a england attack there
Flintoff is nowhere near as fast as Harmison and is an all-rounder, so he shouldn't be compared with Harmison. Also although he is usually econmical he just doesn't take wickets, hense his high bowling average.
 

Rik

Cricketer Of The Year
Langeveldt said:
England have a huge amount of players in their domestic system and they only have 1 spinner worth his salt. Thats a pretty scary stat if you are thinking about winning the ashes anytime soon.

I cant get my head around Harmison, I think he is hugely over rated, Ive seen him this ashes and he doesnt look like he is capable of bowling fast without spraying it everywhere.
Lee, Shoaib at least they have some control
Well the spinner problem is because of our climate which usually produces seaming wickets. It's not a hot dry country so we can't produce spinning wickets really and also if a pitch has any wear or grass on it at the beginning it is usually ruled as an unsuitable pitch. English conditions are made for fast-medium seamers who can swing it like Hoggard, that's why we have so many swing bowlers in the Championship with good FC career stats.
 

PY

International Coach
I cant get my head around Harmison, I think he is hugely over rated, Ive seen him this ashes and he doesnt look like he is capable of bowling fast without spraying it everywhere.
Lee, Shoaib at least they have some control [/B]


agreed, take a look at the amount of wides that Harmison bowled today against the aussies, cut those out and we would have needed only 2 runs to win, although can't be completely blamed on Harmison as the team bowled 15-odd wides in total. needs control as well as pace and effort.
 

Tim

Cricketer Of The Year
No I think Harmison does need to be blamed.
Of those 15 wides, Harmison bowled 11 of them.
He got hooked for four first ball then took a sitter of a catch which he almost dropped & when England were looking as though they had a chance to really put pressure on Australia he bowled 11 wides & allowed Bevan to relax & get himself in.

England did not handle the last over of Watson's very well. Watson's length & line was not very good last over material but for some reason Hussain was stepping away when he should have been charging down the wicket and belting the ball over long off where it should have been going.
 

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