Talented English all-rounders

[Cricket_Fanatic]

Hey guys,

A mate and I were having a discussion the other day about our team's better allrounders in recent years and while these two weren't quite up there, we couldn't agree on who was better - Chris Lewis or Phil DeFreitas!

I always believed Lewis was massively talented with both bat and ball, but really failed to fire. He ended up with one Test ton and averaged 23 with the bat, but only took 93 at an average of 37.

DeFreitas, on the other hand, never really had a fair crack at the team, getting dropped something crazy like 13 times! He took a while to get going with the bat, but could be really destructive later in his career. His longevity at first-class level has to be admired as well.

What do you guys reckon?

 

[iamdavid]

DeFreitas the better bowler and Lewis the better batsman. Although you'd call both of them bowling alrounders really.

 

[archie mac]

Lewis was like a race horse that looks in perfect condition but does not perform, I will give it to PF

 

[Swervy]

Daffy was a fave of mine as a kid

 

[wpdavid]

DeFreitas the better bowler and Lewis the better batsman. Although you'd call both of them bowling alrounders really.

Yup. However, DeFreitas actually produced more in the way of innings that seriously affected matches that England went on to win: 3rd test vs SA in 1994 when he & Gough took the SA attack apart after the top order had struggled, the 4th test in Aus during 1994/95 when he set up a total that England's bowlers were able to defend, and even his 40 on debut which enabled Gatting to enforce the follow-on.

I always thought Daffy was OK - not great, but we didn't produce top notch bowlers in those days. That being said, I'd take him at numebr 8 in the side nowadays, especially as he'd actually get a decent run in the team, which must help his performances. As for Lewis, he looked very good at times during the 1992 WC and bowled well at times in his early tests, but I couldn't say why it didn't work out. Apparently he was 'difficult', whatever that meant. I do know that his final test record was superior to Flintoff's after the same number of matches, fwiw.

Of course, they were both better than guys like Capel & Pringle, who had preceded them in the side.

 

[Poker Boy]

Both are dissmissed as underachievers, but in the case of De Freitas' bowling, a bit harsh IMO. He had good home seasons (1991 and 1994 especially) and his bolwing average in Tests is 33.57. For a comparison, Flintoff's Test bowling average is currently 32.02, and no one says he has underachied as a bowler.

 

[iamdavid]

Both are dissmissed as underachievers, but in the case of De Freitas' bowling, a bit harsh IMO. He had good home seasons (1991 and 1994 especially) and his bolwing average in Tests is 33.57. For a comparison, Flintoff's Test bowling average is currently 32.02, and no one says he has underachied as a bowler.

I do, up until about 2003 or 2004 I think Flintoff underachieved as a bowler. Mind you Flintoff probably has more natural bowling talent than four DeFreitas'.
But I agree DeFreitas did have his moments in the sun at test level particularly in the early 90's and to dismiss him as a complete underachiever would be unfair.

 

[stumpski]

As for Lewis, he looked very good at times during the 1992 WC and bowled well at times in his early tests, but I couldn't say why it didn't work out. Apparently he was 'difficult', whatever that meant. I do know that his final test record was superior to Flintoff's after the same number of matches, fwiw.

Of course, they were both better than guys like Capel & Pringle, who had preceded them in the side.

The England dressing room was full of moody types and fragile egos in the early 90s - can you imagine what it was like for Athers having Hick, Caddick, Lewis, Tufnell and the young Ramprakash to contend with? Much better team spirit nowadays I'm sure.

Pringle a rather under-rated performer IMO, Capel no better than a useful county player though.

 

[BoyBrumby]

A writer (can't recall who, sadly) once described Lewis as "an enigma without variations", a fact I relay if only 'cos I thought it a rather good line.

As others have said tho, Lewis was always perceived as a high-maintenance player & one pretty much guaranteed to rub Ray Illingworth up the wrong way. IIRC a story did the rounds that he shaved his head on a Caribbean tour only to (unsurprisingly perhaps) succumb to sunstroke the following day. I had a lot of time for Daffy tho, who was never less than wholehearted but always seemed to be the first out the door after a loss. And we had a fair few losses in the late 80s/early 90s.

I think it's fair to say both would've been handled rather more sensitively under Fletcher, given the endless patience shown to the fragile (in body & mind) Harmison.

 

[Zimdan]

A writer (can't recall who, sadly) once described Lewis as "an enigma without variations", a fact I relay if only 'cos I thought it a rather good line.

As others have said tho, Lewis was always perceived as a high-maintenance player & one pretty much guaranteed to rub Ray Illingworth up the wrong way. IIRC a story did the rounds that he shaved his head on a Caribbean tour only to (unsurprisingly perhaps) succumb to sunstroke the following day. I had a lot of time for Daffy tho, who was never less than wholehearted but always seemed to be the first out the door after a loss. And we had a fair few losses in the late 80s/early 90s.

I think it's fair to say both would've been handled rather more sensitively under Fletcher, given the endless patience shown to the fragile (in body & mind) Harmison.

What about Headley, certainly a top career cut short?

 

[BoyBrumby]

What about Headley, certainly a top career cut short?

A better bowler than either Lewis or Daffy for mine, but he possibly would always have had his injury woes under whatever regime. But yeah, a sad end to a burgeoning career.

 

[wpdavid]

The England dressing room was full of moody types and fragile egos in the early/mid 90s - can you imagine what it was like for Athers having Hick, Caddick, Lewis, Tufnell and the young Ramprakash to contend with?

Actually, you could add to that list. Cork's problems were well documented, Gough was never happy if not the number 1 quick in the side, and Hussain can't have been easy at times.

Pringle a rather under-rated performer IMO, Capel no better than a useful county player though.

Pringle's contribution was crucial at Leeds in 1991, but other than that I don't recall a lot from him. Capel only played because we thought we had to have an allrounder in the side even when Beefy was absent.

 

[wpdavid]

A writer (can't recall who, sadly) once described Lewis as "an enigma without variations", a fact I relay if only 'cos I thought it a rather good line.

As others have said tho, Lewis was always perceived as a high-maintenance player & one pretty much guaranteed to rub Ray Illingworth up the wrong way. IIRC a story did the rounds that he shaved his head on a Caribbean tour only to (unsurprisingly perhaps) succumb to sunstroke the following day. I had a lot of time for Daffy tho, who was never less than wholehearted but always seemed to be the first out the door after a loss. And we had a fair few losses in the late 80s/early 90s.


I think it's fair to say both would've been handled rather more sensitively under Fletcher, given the endless patience shown to the fragile (in body & mind) Harmison.

The story about shaved head & sunstroke is dead right.

Actually, I only really replied to comment appreciatively on your current avatar. I had no idea you were a fan of Costello, even though it's no surprise. You can take the credit for me splashing out a tenner on the extended CD versions of 'Imperial Bedroom' & 'Trust' today (obviously I bought the vinyl when they first came out). Two very fine albums, which are well worth a listen if you haven't already.

 

[BoyBrumby]

The story about shaved head & sunstroke is dead right.

Actually, I only really replied to comment appreciatively on your current avatar. I had no idea you were a fan of Costello, even though it's no surprise. You can take the credit for me splashing out a tenner on the extended CD versions of 'Imperial Bedroom' & 'Trust' today (obviously I bought the vinyl when they first came out). Two very fine albums, which are well worth a listen if you haven't already.

Yeah, been a fan for a while now.

Probably have him second only to Moz as English lyricists go (both of Irish extraction which may or may not be relevant). I own Imperial Bedroom, but not Trust. My local "Fopp" closed a month or so back (along with all the other Fopps by all accounts) which has rather curtailed my CD buying for the time being, but picked up some choice cuts of Elv's back catalogue dirt cheap there.

 

[stumpski]

Yeah, been a fan for a while now.

Probably have him second only to Moz as English lyricists go (both of Irish extraction which may or may not be relevant). I own Imperial Bedroom, but not Trust. My local "Fopp" closed a month or so back (along with all the other Fopps by all accounts) which has rather curtailed my CD buying for the time being, but picked up some choice cuts of Elv's back catalogue dirt cheap there.

Huge Costello fan myself. Got almost all his official releases (not too keen on recent stuff though tbh). I bought Trust a couple of years ago on a CD re-issue with about 10 extra tracks. Went to play it a while back and it wasn't in the case. So not happy about that. Still got the old vinyl copy though. 'New Lace Sleeves' and Whiper to a Scream' stand-out tracks.

Anyway, back to the cricket ... I hope Bopara gets a bowl at some stage. Colly can afford to mix the bowlers up a bit.

 

[Scaly piscine]

Hey guys,

A mate and I were having a discussion the other day about our team's better allrounders in recent years and while these two weren't quite up there, we couldn't agree on who was better - Chris Lewis or Phil DeFreitas!

I always believed Lewis was massively talented with both bat and ball, but really failed to fire. He ended up with one Test ton and averaged 23 with the bat, but only took 93 at an average of 37.

DeFreitas, on the other hand, never really had a fair crack at the team, getting dropped something crazy like 13 times! He took a while to get going with the bat, but could be really destructive later in his career. His longevity at first-class level has to be admired as well.

What do you guys reckon?

Would have much rather had DeFreitas in my team personally.

Also why don't you publicise missing people who need the publicity instead of someone who has been rammed down everyones throats from day one because the parents happen to be rich doctors?

 

[wpdavid]

Huge Costello fan myself. Got almost all his official releases (not too keen on recent stuff though tbh). I bought Trust a couple of years ago on a CD re-issue with about 10 extra tracks. Went to play it a while back and it wasn't in the case. So not happy about that. Still got the old vinyl copy though. 'New Lace Sleeves' and Whisper to a Scream' stand-out tracks.

Yes, that's the one I bought today. As you say, 'New Lace Sleeves' is outstanding. That was also in the middle of the period when I was massively into Costello. Obviously 'This Year's Model' had been unbelievably good, but I particularly liked the series of lp's in the early `980's - 'Get Happy', 'Trust', 'Imperial Bedroom' & 'Punch the Clock'. I also loved the US release around that time 'Taking Liberties'. Subsequently, I only really enjoyed 'King of America'. It's a worry to think that even that was released over 20 years ago now

 

[BoyBrumby]

Yes, that's the one I bought today. As you say, 'New Lace Sleeves' is outstanding. That was also in the middle of the period when I was massively into Costello. Obviously 'This Year's Model' had been unbelievably good, but I particularly liked the series of lp's in the early `980's - 'Get Happy', 'Trust', 'Imperial Bedroom' & 'Punch the Clock'. I also loved the US release around that time 'Taking Liberties'. Subsequently, I only really enjoyed 'King of America'. It's a worry to think that even that was released over 20 years ago now

First Costello album I bought was Brutal Youth (AKA the one where he reformed The Attractions) which in my mind was fairly recent, but I'm horrified to find out was actually in 1994. Wow.

 

[Richard]

And we had a fair few losses in the late 80s/early 90s.

We actually didn't have many in the early 90s - between the start of the decade and The Oval 1992 (which began a spell of 13 games, 1 win, 11 losses) we were only genuinely beaten in Australia in 1990\91 (when Gooch, Lamb and Fraser, key players all, all suffered injuries). This encompassed the against-all-odds series in West Indies which we lost 2-1 in one of the greatest injustices of all-time (should have been 2-2 at the worst), victories over New Zealand, India and New Zealand, and two home series against West Indies and Pakistan where we fought tenaciously to draw and should have won.

 

[Richard]

Also why don't you publicise missing people who need the publicity instead of someone who has been rammed down everyones throats from day one because the parents happen to be rich doctors?

How do you know this isn't one of the parents or a family friend, for instance?