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Should 2nd county division be counted as FC?

Will Scarlet

U19 Debutant
I believe that games played in county cricket's second division should not count towards first class averages. You get players like Hamish Marshall, who averaged less than 25 in NZ FC cricket, going over and playing in the second division and averaging more than 50.
 
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JASON

Cricketer Of The Year
The Big Question IMHO is are there Too Many Overseas Players in County Cricket ?

I draw parallels to the past when they had loads of Overseas players and the England Teams performances dropped. Then they went down to 1 player only per county for a long time and they seemed to come right to the point of winning back the Ashes and reaching No.2 ranking - but now they have lots of overseas players and others who are playing as locals under EU passports and under other eligibility criteria "pretending" as locals:) and thus the number of English players eligible to represent England and playing regular County Cricket is going down. And associated with this a slide in England's Test performances....

I think there is a message there for administrators of English Cricket.
 

chaminda_00

Hall of Fame Member
They have 2 overseas players per team and a heaps of other non EU players when they won the Ashes and reached number two in the World. When they first changed it they were like No 6 in World and lost an Ashes series at home.

There problem has always been they have no depth and even if you reduced the amount of non English players they will still have no depth. Yes more English players will get a game, but the top English players pushing for National spots wont be tested like they are now, so you will have even more under done players in the Test and ODI side.
 
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Neil Pickup

Cricket Web Moderator
If you think the second division's bad, I would suggest you look at what's counted as first class in South Africa...
 

NUFAN

Y no Afghanistan flag
If you think the second division's bad, I would suggest you look at what's counted as first class in South Africa...
That's a good point.

It would also mean there would be players playing Div 2 county cricket and performing great with 0 first class games after 5 years in there career if there side never managed to go up, which would be dire.
 

chaminda_00

Hall of Fame Member
That's a good point.

It would also mean there would be players playing Div 2 county cricket and performing great with 0 first class games after 5 years in there career if there side never managed to go up, which would be dire.
Could always sign for Division One side if they were any good.
 

NUFAN

Y no Afghanistan flag
Could always sign for Division One side if they were any good.
Yeah they could, but Division 1 doesn't have the best 100 players and division 2 the next 100.

Do you think the best players should play in the premier division and then all the other guys in 2nd division?
 

chaminda_00

Hall of Fame Member
Yeah they could, but Division 1 doesn't have the best 100 players and division 2 the next 100.

Do you think the best players should play in the premier division and then all the other guys in 2nd division?
Personally i reckon having the best players in just nine sides will help improve the depth in England. But the problem comes when you have sides in different divisions in both forms. There are more players moving to Division One clubs, but really the gap between both divisions seems fairly small.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
The Big Question IMHO is are there Too Many Overseas Players in County Cricket ?

I draw parallels to the past when they had loads of Overseas players and the England Teams performances dropped. Then they went down to 1 player only per county for a long time and they seemed to come right to the point of winning back the Ashes and reaching No.2 ranking - but now they have lots of overseas players and others who are playing as locals under EU passports and under other eligibility criteria "pretending" as locals:) and thus the number of English players eligible to represent England and playing regular County Cricket is going down. And associated with this a slide in England's Test performances....

I think there is a message there for administrators of English Cricket.
The obvious answer to your question is, yes there are. The problem is what can we do about it? The sad answer is, not a lot. Following the Kolpak ruling & with EU freedom of movement any South African or any non-Brit who qualifies for an EU passport can ply there trade over here as a non-overseas player.

To be fair to the ECB they have been quite pro-active in encouraging the growth of home-reared talent; reducing the number of official overseas players to one from next season & introducing a system that penalises counties who play non-English qualified players as non-overseas, but their efforts are undermined by the counties who seem only too ready to employ carpetbagging saffies as quick fixes.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
The obvious answer to your question is, yes there are. The problem is what can we do about it? The sad answer is, not a lot. Following the Kolpak ruling & with EU freedom of movement any South African or any non-Brit who qualifies for an EU passport can ply there trade over here as a non-overseas player.
The EU have created this mess, they're the only ones who can sort it out. (And no, I'm no a Eurosceptic)

Let's hope they do.

In the meantime, the ECB can do what they can - get rid of "overseas" players completely, for so long a time as the EU-passport and Kolpak rulings apply.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
If you think the second division's bad, I would suggest you look at what's counted as first class in South Africa...
Exactly, it's utterly ludicrous. No way IMO should there be a First-Class divide between First Division and Second Division County Championship games, there's really not a massive divide. But in SA, there is between Franchise and Provincial cricket, which is not recognised.

Me, I'd be happiest if a second tier - Second-Class cricket, would seem logical - were to be introduced, as it'd make these things easier.
 

Poker Boy

State Vice-Captain
Second Division cricket should be FC IMO. Funny how no one has said the UCCE games should not be FC and they are a lower standard than the Diviison 2 games. Besides, Monty and Cook were playing for Division 2 counties when they got called up for England - if Division 2 was not FC would that have happened? Or would they have gone to Division 1 counties to play FC in which case what incentive for Division 2 counties as no talented teenager would choose to play for one of them. Richard - I don't like the EU but why should UK sportsmen be protected but not orther UK workers? Sport has to obey the law like evrybody else.I would ban overseas players (ie non Kolpaks) but that's more because the international schedule is such that it is a nightmare to know in any given week who the overseas players are for each county than for any other reason - and one per county won't change that. Thought: If each county had 5 players ineligable to play for England in thier XI that would still leave 108 England qualified players playing in each round of the CC - still more than Aussies in the Pura Cup, or SA in the Supersport Series, or in WI or NZ....
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
I believe that games played in county cricket's second division should not count towards first class averages. You get players like Hamish Marshall, who averaged less than 25 in NZ FC cricket, going over and playing in the second division and averaging more than 50.
Hamish Marshall - NZ State Championship
2006/07 - 766 runs @ 54.71
2004/05 - 202 runs @ 50.50

NZ domestic cricket after 2004 shouldn't have first class status either then! Hell, neither should test cricket...
Hamish Marshall - 652 runs @ 38.35

Ever consider that maybe Marshall's just a little bit better than his career first class stats tell us?
 

steds

Hall of Fame Member
The Big Question IMHO is are there Too Many Overseas Players in County Cricket ?
The obvious answer to your question is, yes there are.
Strongly disagree. There isn't the depth of English players to have a strong competition consisting of 16 counties. I know a competition of fourth or fifth rate English players who're worth nothing sounds more enticing to some people than what decent players we produce facing second rate foreigners earning more than they're worth, but I know what I'd prefer to watch/have our best young players gain experience in.
 

cpr

International Coach
Firstly, i dont like this notion of 'The best players should play for the top 9'. Cricket is going the way of many other sports, losing touch with its roots in pursuit of commercial and financial success. Although already eroded, the dream of representing ones county still burns in all youngsters, and a high number of professionals. Taking that away by having the best at the best would do serious damage. Firstly the 'Best 9' (how do you judge that, does one poor season relegate you to years of inferiority?) will find fewer youngsters coming through the ranks due to the chase for megastars. The lesser 9 will find it difficult to break into the top if their best players are always poached, leaving them with less revenue and less to put back into grassroots cricket. I cant see who would win from this.
Look at Durham. I'm sure people see them as not one of the big 9, and they've only been playing FC cricket for 20 years or so.. Its taken that generation of struggle to raise local interest in the game, and bring through players such as Collingwood, Harmison and Plunkett (ok, clutching at straws there). Its this struggle but ability to rise to the top that keeps the game interesting, for fans and prospective future stars.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
Strongly disagree. There isn't the depth of English players to have a strong competition consisting of 16 counties. I know a competition of fourth or fifth rate English players who're worth nothing sounds more enticing to some people than what decent players we produce facing second rate foreigners earning more than they're worth, but I know what I'd prefer to watch/have our best young players gain experience in.
There's a balance to be struck tho. I've no issue with top notch foreign stars coming over & playing as legitimate overseas pros nor with guys like Trott or KP who come over at a sufficiently young age to be able to qualify for England. It's the ageing saffies who've come over to line their pockets (& good luck to them, btw, it's our problem not their's) who could be holding back young prospects I really have the problem with. There's very rarely a pretence at qualifying to play for us & (as with Harris) they can quickly revert back to being bona fide yarpies should international recognition come their way.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
There's little chance, though, as Bennett says (and he's continuing a line old Mr Robbins pushed for all these years before his recent departure), of either a middling overseas-player or an average SAfrican who's on a Kolpak contract holding back a real prospect. They'll just force out an average English player.

The worry is purely the fact that players from overseas - whatever qualification they use to play for a county - cost such an insane amount, and drain money out of the game over here which would be best used elsewhere. That's why I'd love to see Kolpaks stopped, EU-passport players stopped, and overseas-players limited to 1 at a time, 2 max per season (rather than the insane situation we had a couple of years ago where you could have 5 or 6 overseas players over the course of a season, plus whatever Kolpaks and EU-passporters you had as well :wacko: ).

Sadly, while the EU constitution is as it currently is and ECB is run the way it's run currently (respectively - EU control the situation regarding Kolpaks and EU-passporters, ECB control overseas-players), that won't happen.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Richard - I don't like the EU but why should UK sportsmen be protected but not orther UK workers? Sport has to obey the law like evrybody else.
I don't see why, TBH. Sport is a very, very different form of employment to pretty much anything else IMO. Sport's principal purpose is not employment - people play sport as a pastime, and non-players view it as a spectacle. Both of these are true of virtually no other form of employment. And there was a time (200 years ago or so) when no-one played sport professionally, and Gideon Haigh once said in a very salient choice of phrasemaking: "introducing money into a sporting ecosystem cannot help but strain the bond between spectator and spectacle".

In 2004 the latest draft EU constitution recognised the "specific nature" of sport. Whether said draft was abandoned or is still waiting to be pushed through I don't know, but it suggests that the idea of sport being separate to, say, working in a bank, is not completely unreasonable.
 

Poker Boy

State Vice-Captain
I don't see why, TBH. Sport is a very, very different form of employment to pretty much anything else IMO. Sport's principal purpose is not employment - people play sport as a pastime, and non-players view it as a spectacle. Both of these are true of virtually no other form of employment. And there was a time (200 years ago or so) when no-one played sport professionally, and Gideon Haigh once said in a very salient choice of phrasemaking: "introducing money into a sporting ecosystem cannot help but strain the bond between spectator and spectacle".

In 2004 the latest draft EU constitution recognised the "specific nature" of sport. Whether said draft was abandoned or is still waiting to be pushed through I don't know, but it suggests that the idea of sport being separate to, say, working in a bank, is not completely unreasonable.
Since two players from the football team I support got convicted of "brech of the peace" for their on field behaviour (and TBH anyone who thinks there is a peace to breach at Rangers v Celtic games is a bit silly:laugh: ) I've always thought the law should apply to sport as that was the argument of the police who brought the case. For criminal law, read employment law. In any case its probably the average players that get pushed out and that's no bad thing. I do think overseas players get scapegoated sometimes. Take Lancashire. Young players like Smith, Nweby, Hogg (who has had to go on loan twice to get games) and Cross don't get much action because of Cork, Chapple, Sutton plus Anderson and Mahmood when England don't want the later two. They don't get much critcisim for this. Now if it had been Kolpaks keeping them out...
 

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