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Thread: Should 2nd county division be counted as FC?

  1. #16
    cpr
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    Firstly, i dont like this notion of 'The best players should play for the top 9'. Cricket is going the way of many other sports, losing touch with its roots in pursuit of commercial and financial success. Although already eroded, the dream of representing ones county still burns in all youngsters, and a high number of professionals. Taking that away by having the best at the best would do serious damage. Firstly the 'Best 9' (how do you judge that, does one poor season relegate you to years of inferiority?) will find fewer youngsters coming through the ranks due to the chase for megastars. The lesser 9 will find it difficult to break into the top if their best players are always poached, leaving them with less revenue and less to put back into grassroots cricket. I cant see who would win from this.
    Look at Durham. I'm sure people see them as not one of the big 9, and they've only been playing FC cricket for 20 years or so.. Its taken that generation of struggle to raise local interest in the game, and bring through players such as Collingwood, Harmison and Plunkett (ok, clutching at straws there). Its this struggle but ability to rise to the top that keeps the game interesting, for fans and prospective future stars.
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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by steds View Post
    Strongly disagree. There isn't the depth of English players to have a strong competition consisting of 16 counties. I know a competition of fourth or fifth rate English players who're worth nothing sounds more enticing to some people than what decent players we produce facing second rate foreigners earning more than they're worth, but I know what I'd prefer to watch/have our best young players gain experience in.
    There's a balance to be struck tho. I've no issue with top notch foreign stars coming over & playing as legitimate overseas pros nor with guys like Trott or KP who come over at a sufficiently young age to be able to qualify for England. It's the ageing saffies who've come over to line their pockets (& good luck to them, btw, it's our problem not their's) who could be holding back young prospects I really have the problem with. There's very rarely a pretence at qualifying to play for us & (as with Harris) they can quickly revert back to being bona fide yarpies should international recognition come their way.
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  3. #18
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    There's little chance, though, as Bennett says (and he's continuing a line old Mr Robbins pushed for all these years before his recent departure), of either a middling overseas-player or an average SAfrican who's on a Kolpak contract holding back a real prospect. They'll just force out an average English player.

    The worry is purely the fact that players from overseas - whatever qualification they use to play for a county - cost such an insane amount, and drain money out of the game over here which would be best used elsewhere. That's why I'd love to see Kolpaks stopped, EU-passport players stopped, and overseas-players limited to 1 at a time, 2 max per season (rather than the insane situation we had a couple of years ago where you could have 5 or 6 overseas players over the course of a season, plus whatever Kolpaks and EU-passporters you had as well ).

    Sadly, while the EU constitution is as it currently is and ECB is run the way it's run currently (respectively - EU control the situation regarding Kolpaks and EU-passporters, ECB control overseas-players), that won't happen.
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  4. #19
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poker Boy View Post
    Richard - I don't like the EU but why should UK sportsmen be protected but not orther UK workers? Sport has to obey the law like evrybody else.
    I don't see why, TBH. Sport is a very, very different form of employment to pretty much anything else IMO. Sport's principal purpose is not employment - people play sport as a pastime, and non-players view it as a spectacle. Both of these are true of virtually no other form of employment. And there was a time (200 years ago or so) when no-one played sport professionally, and Gideon Haigh once said in a very salient choice of phrasemaking: "introducing money into a sporting ecosystem cannot help but strain the bond between spectator and spectacle".

    In 2004 the latest draft EU constitution recognised the "specific nature" of sport. Whether said draft was abandoned or is still waiting to be pushed through I don't know, but it suggests that the idea of sport being separate to, say, working in a bank, is not completely unreasonable.


  5. #20
    State Vice-Captain Poker Boy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    I don't see why, TBH. Sport is a very, very different form of employment to pretty much anything else IMO. Sport's principal purpose is not employment - people play sport as a pastime, and non-players view it as a spectacle. Both of these are true of virtually no other form of employment. And there was a time (200 years ago or so) when no-one played sport professionally, and Gideon Haigh once said in a very salient choice of phrasemaking: "introducing money into a sporting ecosystem cannot help but strain the bond between spectator and spectacle".

    In 2004 the latest draft EU constitution recognised the "specific nature" of sport. Whether said draft was abandoned or is still waiting to be pushed through I don't know, but it suggests that the idea of sport being separate to, say, working in a bank, is not completely unreasonable.
    Since two players from the football team I support got convicted of "brech of the peace" for their on field behaviour (and TBH anyone who thinks there is a peace to breach at Rangers v Celtic games is a bit silly ) I've always thought the law should apply to sport as that was the argument of the police who brought the case. For criminal law, read employment law. In any case its probably the average players that get pushed out and that's no bad thing. I do think overseas players get scapegoated sometimes. Take Lancashire. Young players like Smith, Nweby, Hogg (who has had to go on loan twice to get games) and Cross don't get much action because of Cork, Chapple, Sutton plus Anderson and Mahmood when England don't want the later two. They don't get much critcisim for this. Now if it had been Kolpaks keeping them out...
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  6. #21
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    the situation is a bit different at Lancs. Anderson and Mahmood are homegrown, whilst Sutton was brought in because of a frightening lack of depth in keepers. The first two have fought through the ranks, and earnt there spurs. The youth will just have to fight to get in the team. Now if it was a case of 'oh, what overpriced foreigner can we replace them with' thats different. Cross is picking up a good number of games in fairness, he's still too green for a regular FC keeper, but give him a couple of years and Sutton will have done his stop gap duty. Actually think Lancs have a good pedigree of blooding the youngsters, especially bowlers, players like Hogg are struggling not so much due to Kolpak madness, but a good array of talented youngsters fighting to get in

  7. #22
    Hall of Fame Member steds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poker Boy View Post
    Take Lancashire. Young players like Smith, Nweby, Hogg (who has had to go on loan twice to get games) and Cross don't get much action because of Cork, Chapple, Sutton plus Anderson and Mahmood when England don't want the later two. They don't get much critcisim for this. Now if it had been Kolpaks keeping them out...
    Why should they get any criticism for it? Of the 4 young players you listed, two aren't good enough to play for Lancashire at this point in time (to go further, Hogg never will be) and one has nailed down the keeper's spot in Twenty20 cricket. Of the 5 players you've mentioned that are keeping them out, 4 are internationals. Why should an English county be criticised for playing an England player over an English player?

  8. #23
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    Eh, Lancashire are stupid anyway.

  9. #24
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    I can't think of anything...

  10. #25
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    Lancs produce more home grown county players than most teams, and i don't think we can be criticised for bringing in otherplayers as the one young English batsman who gets a regular place in our side-Steven Croft- is crap.

  11. #26
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poker Boy View Post
    Since two players from the football team I support got convicted of "brech of the peace" for their on field behaviour (and TBH anyone who thinks there is a peace to breach at Rangers v Celtic games is a bit silly ) I've always thought the law should apply to sport as that was the argument of the police who brought the case. For criminal law, read employment law. In any case its probably the average players that get pushed out and that's no bad thing. I do think overseas players get scapegoated sometimes. Take Lancashire. Young players like Smith, Nweby, Hogg (who has had to go on loan twice to get games) and Cross don't get much action because of Cork, Chapple, Sutton plus Anderson and Mahmood when England don't want the later two. They don't get much critcisim for this. Now if it had been Kolpaks keeping them out...
    As I say, if I have the choice between an average homegrown player and an average Kolpak\EU-passport player, give me the average homegrown every time. The calibre of players is not the issue for me, the issue is the money that's wasted. Does anyone have any idea how much extra an import costs than a homegrown? The answer is "a lot".

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