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'Keepers - How much can you compromise keeping for batting?

sideshowtim

Banned
Sorry if we've had a thread like this in regards to the terrible keeping in the England vs India series, but I'd like to see where people stand on this.

It's quite clear that in the current cricketing climate, a 'keeper will be chosen for his batting prowess first, and his 'keeping ability second. But how poor does a 'keeper have to be before this spirals out of control? Will we soon be throwing the gloves to Michael Clarke just to fit another batsman in? Prior and Dhoni are not international standard keepers, and it's quite embarassing to see the blunders they make back there sometimes.

Adam Gilchrist, I feel has been the main contributor to this trend. I think the difference is though, that Gilchrist is more than adequate, and at very least an above average international keeper. His batting of course is an entity of its own. He is special, we won't see another Gilchrist for a long time. I compare it to Australia's inane search for an allrounder after the 2005 Ashes -- they just aren't that easy to come across. If you're gonna have one in your team, make them a damn good one.

Some may say "Well, they make up for their errors in their batting". But this just isn't true. It all adds up. Dropped catches like Prior's on Tendulkar can make Tendulkar think "Well, maybe this is my day" and he'll probably go onto hit a good score now. Not only that, the frequent byes that are occuring are a huge weight off the batsman's shoulders. Nothing relieves pressure like a few extras, nice unearnt runs to the total.

I think teams need to realise that excellent keeping should be a priority, not adequate batting. Most keepers these days are good for a few runs here and there anyway, so why not just choose the best 'keeper?

In the cases of freaks such as Adam Gilchrist...well I think he can be excused. Can more than hold his own with the gloves, is very good with them in fact and has improved substantialy recently...and his batting...you'd love him in any team wouldn't you?
 

Pratters

Cricket, Lovely Cricket
I will quote from an earlier post of mine:

Re: Classical keepers... I think that the runs aspect of keepers in tests is over rated. If some one averages 35 in tests while another averages 25, the difference is 20 runs in terms of batting runs for the whole game. However, if the keeper who averages 35 misses a few chances which the better keeper would have taken, there is always the danger of giving away any where between 20-100 runs at least through the match. So I am always in favour of the better keeper still and would only want to consider a better batsman if the difference of batting averages is bigger and difference of keeping skills smaller - it is subjective but I do feel that after the Flower, Gilchrist impact, teams too many teams are going down the road which is wrong. In one day cricket, keepers aren't that important but in tests, they still have a part to play.
 

stumpski

International Captain
Ideally you would always want your best keeper - after all, pretty much every keeper in county cricket can bat, or they wouldn't even be getting a game for their counties. The days of county keepers batting at 10 or 11 are gone for good. The problem comes because most teams want their keeper to bat at 7 (or higher) which means he needs to be able to average at least 20 with the bat, and preferably 25, if he's not going to be out of his depth. If you have an all-rounder to go in at 7 it becomes less of a problem.
 

Nishant

International 12th Man
A better keeper is more important in tests IMO....for the reasons mentioned in the posts above....but in ODIs...its also quite important as well....for example, the way prior was just letting evrything go for four when it goes down the leg side can be quite costly in the end. There should be a decent balance....for that...ur keeper cant be ur best batsman TBH!
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
I'm sure everyone would want a keep you can rely on, but the Gilchrist factor has really changed things, but even so i don't think many teams would want to have their batting ending @ # 6 though. So battting ability is as important.

The perfect scenario would be a keeper averaging about 30-35 with the bat & is very safe behind them stumps.
 

Engle

State Vice-Captain
The optimum combination of keeping/batting skills is what's reqd.

As an e.g. Knott kept Bob Taylor out of the Eng side in the 70's, even tho he acknowledged, as many did, that Taylor was the superior keeper.

However, when Taylor kept, Eng immediately felt the loss of Knott's rear-guard batting. Besides the runs he scored per se, it was also the support he gave to higher batsman and guidance to the lower ones.

AFlower, AStewart, Gilchrist and Sanga have collectively shown how imp batting is to the modern game...tho I cant instantly think of a wk at the opposite extreme
 

stumpski

International Captain
Not easy to think of a keeper in the last 20 years who regularly batted in the last four - Moin Khan sometimes went in as low as 9 when Wasim Akram and Azhar Mahmood were playing, but he was a pretty handy performer. He actually scored his maiden 200 only a couple of years ago.


David Williams is maybe the nearest thing to a tailend keeper in recent years - he was a worse batsman than Read I'd say.
 

umop 3p!sdn

School Boy/Girl Captain
Keeping skills take priority, if they can get more stumpings, catches, runout and give away less byes, then you probably find they make up for the runs that a wiki-batsmen will make or more. Dropping catches can prove expensive.
 

Julian87

State Captain
MSK Prasad
Courtney Browne
Junior Murray

Would all by batting very, very low in a team like South Africa, Australia or New Zealand.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
David Williams is maybe the nearest thing to a tailend keeper in recent years - he was a worse batsman than Read I'd say.
And not surprisingly barely played, Junior Murray and THE DROP Courtney Browne being preferred many times.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
I think that the runs aspect of keepers in tests is over rated. If some one averages 35 in tests while another averages 25, the difference is 20 runs in terms of batting runs for the whole game. However, if the keeper who averages 35 misses a few chances which the better keeper would have taken, there is always the danger of giving away any where between 20-100 runs at least through the match.
As I say quite a bit, averages don't work like that. People don't just score the same thing every match.

Nonetheless, I don't want a wicketkeeper who you always feel could drop a catch any time it comes to him. Prior initially did the job well, but has of late been poor.

What people often forget, though, is that Jack Russell dropped crucial catches, too, and he was the best wicketkeeper in the country in most respects for well over a decade. A wicketkeeper's wicketkeeping inadequacies get magnified ten times over if he can bat.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Sorry if we've had a thread like this in regards to the terrible keeping in the England vs India series, but I'd like to see where people stand on this.

It's quite clear that in the current cricketing climate, a 'keeper will be chosen for his batting prowess first, and his 'keeping ability second. But how poor does a 'keeper have to be before this spirals out of control? Will we soon be throwing the gloves to Michael Clarke just to fit another batsman in? Prior and Dhoni are not international standard keepers, and it's quite embarassing to see the blunders they make back there sometimes.

Adam Gilchrist, I feel has been the main contributor to this trend. I think the difference is though, that Gilchrist is more than adequate, and at very least an above average international keeper. His batting of course is an entity of its own. He is special, we won't see another Gilchrist for a long time. I compare it to Australia's inane search for an allrounder after the 2005 Ashes -- they just aren't that easy to come across. If you're gonna have one in your team, make them a damn good one.

Some may say "Well, they make up for their errors in their batting". But this just isn't true. It all adds up. Dropped catches like Prior's on Tendulkar can make Tendulkar think "Well, maybe this is my day" and he'll probably go onto hit a good score now. Not only that, the frequent byes that are occuring are a huge weight off the batsman's shoulders. Nothing relieves pressure like a few extras, nice unearnt runs to the total.

I think teams need to realise that excellent keeping should be a priority, not adequate batting. Most keepers these days are good for a few runs here and there anyway, so why not just choose the best 'keeper?

In the cases of freaks such as Adam Gilchrist...well I think he can be excused. Can more than hold his own with the gloves, is very good with them in fact and has improved substantialy recently...and his batting...you'd love him in any team wouldn't you?
To say that Prior and Dhoni are not international-standard 'keepers is simply wrong. Dhoni's wicketkeeping in his career to date has been perfectly adaquete, and if he couldn't bat I don't think many people would have said much about him.

I also disagree that byes impact in any way on the batsman. They're pretty well meaningless (as are leg-byes). They'll rarely occur in any quantity to affect the result if a wicketkeeper is of any decent standard at all (ie, above the Dasgupta level); only if byes start reaching 30 or more regularly (as a good batsman would do) do you need to start worrying, and I can't ever recall such a thing happening to any wicketkeeper.

Dropping batsmen is obviously something you never want anyone to do, and if a wicketkeeper starts dropping too many catches you need to start thinking about giving someone else the gloves.
 

Pratters

Cricket, Lovely Cricket
As I say quite a bit, averages don't work like that. People don't just score the same thing every match.
It comes to a 20 run difference on an average where batting is concerned but a keeper might give much more than 20 runs by dropping catches or giving byes. It is simple really.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Just because someone averages 5 more than someone else doesn't really mean a 10-run difference every game, though. That's not how averages work, people don't make the same score every game.

It's more about regularity of significant score than average, really.
 

Pratters

Cricket, Lovely Cricket
Just because someone averages 5 more than someone else doesn't really mean a 10-run difference every game, though. That's not how averages work, people don't make the same score every game.
I am no saying that they score the same every time.

It's more about regularity of significant score than average, really.
Regularity of the significant score - this is a very subjective issue. Team x would want a more consitent contributions lower down the order while team y would want more significant scores. That is unrelated to the average aspect as average says how you are contributing on an average which is a macro over view rather than a micro over view.

Who is contributing with more significant scores is not on the same plane as averages. A batsman averaging 25 might be coming up with more significant scores than a batsman averaging 35.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Yes, indeed they might, which is one of several reasons why averages aren't everything.

IMO, you can't sum-up a wicketkeeper by byes and batting-averages. It just doesn't work that way.
 

Pratters

Cricket, Lovely Cricket
Yes, indeed they might, which is one of several reasons why averages aren't everything.

IMO, you can't sum-up a wicketkeeper by byes and batting-averages. It just doesn't work that way.
I am not saying that averages are every thing. You would need to go deeper but on a macro level a difference of 10 is 20 runs a match on an average. Take 50 runs or 70 runs for a game if you will. If he is that much a poorer keeper, he can give much more away because of dropped catches or byes in a test match. That number of catches he misses and runs he gives away as byes, which the other keeper, because he is better, would not have given away, might add up to 50-60 runs if not more in particular games.

He scores a 120 in one out of 8 matches, a signigicant score but constantly gives up 30-45 runs per game more than another keeper, why would I want the worse keeper?

It is a subjective decision as I said in my original post but I do find it much more tilted towards keeper-batsmen than it should in my opinion for tests particularly.
 
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NUFAN

Y no Afghanistan flag
Any young keeper who drops a sitter with Tendulkar on strike would want to knuckle down at the crease and not drop any other regulation catches for a while or it's obvious that he'll be gone..

What's up with James Foster thought he'd have been higher up on the pecking order.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Prior has more strokes than Foster TBH but I have to question whether he's actually a better batsman these days.
 

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