'Keepers - How much can you compromise keeping for batting?

[Richard]

Nope.

Well, he wasn't last time I saw him anyway.

Nothing different to Geraint Jones.

 

[gettingbetter]

So who do you think is the best keeper for each country?

Other than England, I don't really see any other countries having issues with their keepers, even India.

Australia, South Africa, New Zealand all have the 'right' keepers. Sri Lanka and India seem to share similar ideals in regards to keepers and I don't know too much about Pakistani domestic cricket to recommend another keeper other than Akmal.

 

[Richard]

Think Tharmi (chaminda_00) would argue that Lanka certainly don't have the right wicketkeeper now; that Kaushal Silva is far superior to Prasanna Jayawardene.

 

[Richard]

So who do you think is the best keeper for each country?

Australia - Haddin
England - ?
India - Karthik
New Zealand - McCullum
Pakistan - ?
South Africa - Boucher
Sri Lanka - Silva
West Indies - Baugh

This is in Tests only.

 

[JBMAC]

Interesting discussion.IMPO Gilchrist is a player who has raised the bar for keepers. His keeping is more than adequate and with a test average of 48.66 sets a high standard that may never be surpassed.

In checking on a few of the keepers I have seen and one I have read about,I decided to check a few batting averages of keepers.

TALLON........17.13 but without a doubt the best keeper of all time IMO
GROUT.........15.13 Second best
WAITE..........30.44 Third best

OTHERS
KNOTT.........32.75
DUJON.........31.94
HEALY.........27.40
BLACKHAM..15.69

That's just a few to chew on.The position of keeper has to some extent been downgraded to allrounder. It is interesting to note Johnny Waite played his cricket between 1951-1965 at a time when keepers were not expected to score runs.
Like everything else in our game it is continually evolving but to my way of thinking the position of wicketkeeper is still an integral part of the game and "good hads" behind the stumps, NOT adequate ones is still essential.

 

[NUFAN]

Australia - Haddin
England - ?
India - Karthik
New Zealand - McCullum
Pakistan - ?
South Africa - Boucher
Sri Lanka - Silva
West Indies - Baugh

This is in Tests only.

QLD's Chris Hartley is easily a better keeper then Haddin. Just the fact that he's averaging in the 20's he's not recognised as much.

 

[Richard]

Surely Haddin's not bad enough with the gloves to preclude him being a Test wicketkeeper-batsman?

I've never seen anything particularly wrong with his wicketkeeping.

Hartley on the other hand doesn't seem to be rated all that much as a batsman.

 

[Richard]

The position of keeper has to some extent been downgraded to allrounder.

I'd say it's been changed (not neccessarily downgraded) to wicketkeeper-batsman. IMO a wicketkeeper-batsman is and always will be different to an all-rounder (which is a batsman-bowler).

but to my way of thinking the position of wicketkeeper is still an integral part of the game and "good hads" behind the stumps, NOT adequate ones is still essential.

Certainly, inadaquete ones are unacceptible. What constitutes inadaquete, however, is always going to be a moot-point.

 

[NUFAN]

Surely Haddin's not bad enough with the gloves to preclude him being a Test wicketkeeper-batsman?

I've never seen anything particularly wrong with his wicketkeeping.

Hartley on the other hand doesn't seem to be rated all that much as a batsman.

Yeah and nor is Gilchrist.

Weren't you just selecting who you thought were the best keepers in the country as far as keeping and not batting was concerned, or do you think Haddin should be our keeper and Gilchrist shown the door?

Haddin is easily next in line, he's a good behind the stumps and his batting easily gets him past Hartley who may not even be next in line.

 

[Richard]

No, no, was selecting those who I think should have the wicketkeeping role in their Test team now.

Yes, I think Gilchrist should have retired from Tests with Buchanan, Langer, McGrath and Warne. He hasn't really been that good for the last 4 years. Haddin, to me, would be the better bet to open 2007\08.

 

[NUFAN]

No, no, was selecting those who I think should have the wicketkeeping role in their Test team now.

Yes, I think Gilchrist should have retired from Tests with Buchanan, Langer, McGrath and Warne. He hasn't really been that good for the last 4 years. Haddin, to me, would be the better bet to open 2007\08.

I'm happy that Gilchrist has decided to stay on in Tests. He should give up the ODI's soon though.

If Gilly can continue as keeper for a couple of years it might mean someone like Hartley, Ronchi or maybe even Dawson will be our next Test keeper with Haddin unfortunately missing out, even though he's not that old yet.

 

[Richard]

That's exactly why I want Gilchrist to go now, because otherwise Haddin will probably miss his chance, and it's unlikely there'll be anyone as good as him for a while.

And as I say, Gilchrist hasn't really been that good for the last 4 years, it'd probably be best for Australia in the immediate future for him to leave the Test side.

Obviously it makes no sense whatsoever for him to continue to play ODIs. His WC final innings should be his last, and the Twenty20 WC should be his final foray in international cricket IMO.

 

[NUFAN]

That's exactly why I want Gilchrist to go now, because otherwise Haddin will probably miss his chance, and it's unlikely there'll be anyone as good as him for a while.

And as I say, Gilchrist hasn't really been that good for the last 4 years, it'd probably be best for Australia in the immediate future for him to leave the Test side.

Obviously it makes no sense whatsoever for him to continue to play ODIs. His WC final innings should be his last, and the Twenty20 WC should be his final foray in international cricket IMO.

Yeah it would have been a perfect time to bow out from ODI's. I don't see much sense in him playing the Twenty20 WC even though he'll probably be awesome in it.

I guess your right that it would be a great time for Haddin to take over, but I think it's a bit harsh on GIlly to say he hasn't been that good the last 4 years. Sure he's probably averaging 37 to 40 (haven't checked) but he's still been very solid behind the stumps and making runs just not as often as before.

What do you think Haddin would average in Test Cricket? I'm thinking around 35.

 

[Richard]

Would guess somewhere around there, yeah.

Thing about Gilchrist is that for most of the last 4 years he's not even averaging 30. This year for starters, then this 18 months. It's just that it had this 5 months in between.

So that's most of his last 40 Tests (out of 83 - almost half his career now) he's been very average, really, just that the very short good period (8 out of 40) obscures this a great deal.

However, as with Botham and many others, the fact that he was so incredibly good at first will mean many people refuse to accept he can ever, ever be very poor.

 

[NUFAN]

Would guess somewhere around there, yeah.

Thing about Gilchrist is that for most of the last 4 years he's not even averaging 30. This year for starters, then this 18 months. It's just that it had this 5 months in between.

So that's most of his last 40 Tests (out of 83 - almost half his career now) he's been very average, really, just that the very short good period (7 out of 40) obscures this a great deal.

However, as with Botham and many others, the fact that he was so incredibly good at first will mean they refuse to accept he can be very poor at any time.

OK cool. I think most Aussie fans know that he's be down, but have often said it's due to playing too much cricket, and I feel that if he gave up ODI and just played Test he'd perform better.

Leaving a match winner in Gilchrist out of your Test side would be a massive call at this stage in his career.

 

[Richard]

As I say, though - how many matches has he really won the last 4 years? Almost all his best innings have come when his side's already on top, sometimes by miles.

I honestly think it'd be better, especially with 4 players and a coach having gone last summer, to make as much of a clean-break as possible, especially with someone like Haddin (provided he starts 2007\08 well) seemingly perfectly poised to take the role on.

 

[pasag]

GIlchrist's value is way beyond his batting and wicketkeeping though, which neither worry me in the slightest atm. It's the leadership and attitude he brings to the team and feild and imo, it's so, so vital. Now more than ever in a time of transition we need him out there, at least just for the next 12 months.

 

[sideshowtim]

The statistics on Gilly's batting in recent times, I feel, aren't a true representation of him. For the last few years, Australia's top order has been more dominant than ever. This leads to Gilchrist coming in with plenty of runs on the board (in general), and meaning he is pretty much ordererd to tonk it from ball one. This won't always work of course. We saw in Bangladesh, that when required, he can still pull out a magnificent innings to save us. It's just that he hasn't had much of an opportunity to do this of late. We've not lost a test for 16 or 17 in a row, and that period extends past 2 years.

 

[sideshowtim]

GIlchrist's value is way beyond his batting and wicketkeeping though, which neither worry me in the slightest atm. It's the leadership and attitude he brings to the team and feild and imo, it's so, so vital. Now more than ever in a time of transition we need him out there, at least just for the next 12 months.

And yes, I certainly agree with this. Gilly seems to be a magnificent team man, and the bloke you'd want out on the field with you. Hope he goes into commentary when he retires actually, he's very charasmatic and was hilarious in that Twenty20 in the 06/07 Ashes series.

 

[sideshowtim]

As I say, though - how many matches has he really won the last 4 years? Almost all his best innings have come when his side's already on top, sometimes by miles.

I honestly think it'd be better, especially with 4 players and a coach having gone last summer, to make as much of a clean-break as possible, especially with someone like Haddin (provided he starts 2007\08 well) seemingly perfectly poised to take the role on.

World Cup final? That was pretty much Gilchrist all the way. Can't get much of a bigger occasion than that either.