Botham vs. Imran as an allrounder in tests

[Days of Grace]

Who was the better allrounder? Who was the more genuine allrounder?

Stats:
Batting:
Imran Khan 37.69
Botham 33.54

Bowling:
Imran Khan 22.81
Botham 28.40

On those stats, looks like Imran all the way.

However, Imran was more of a bowling allrounder, whilst Botham contributed more to his team with both bat/and ball? Also, in terms of taking the 100runs/5 wickets in a match double, Botham did it 7 times, Imran 2.

 

[Perm]

Imran. This has been done to death.

 

[Days of Grace]

After the Ashes of 1981, Botham had a batting average of 32.40 and a bowling average of 21.20. Whilst his batting stayed about the same level over the next ten years, his bowling dropped dramatically. The question is, do we compare Botham to Imran by his whole career, or only the first half of it?

 

[Richard]

It's one done many times, and there are many complications involved.

My best shot at a short summary:

Botham was virtually peerless 1977-1981 when not captain; he was poor when captain, which may or may not have been to do with captaincy; he maintained his batting form until part way through 1984, while losing his bowling after 1981; he was useless from 1984 to 1987 and should never, ever have played thereafter. As a slip-catcher, however, he was one of the very best pretty much throughout.

Imran was brought in far too early and only became a real proposition in 1976\77. He was a magnificent bowler, perfectly possibly the best going around, until 1988\89, and became a very, very good lower-order batsman in 1980 having previously been a very useful tailender. Imran was also a very fine captain.

So, in short, you can't say one was better. You can only say that, in their right times, both were magnificent and Imran lasted somewhat longer.

 

[pskov]

At their respective peaks I'd take Botham, but only just. In that short 4 or 5 year period he was IMHO one of the greatest players ever to play the game. However, on the basis of their overall career I'd pick Imran by a comfortable distance.

 

[Prince EWS]

After the Ashes of 1981, Botham had a batting average of 32.40 and a bowling average of 21.20. Whilst his batting stayed about the same level over the next ten years, his bowling dropped dramatically. The question is, do we compare Botham to Imran by his whole career, or only the first half of it?

Well, it would depend what you were looking for. Whether you were after what each player was capable of, what they each one was like at their respective peaks or how valuable overall each one was to their respective teams would change whether you took in entire careers or not, and the scrutiny you placed on finding their best periods.

For mine though, judging purely by stats (and I've had a look at them closely over the course of the last twelve threads on this - I'm not referring to their career average or even just their best years - I've had a good look) it is really hard to go past Imran. At their respective bests, Botham eclipsed Imran, but even if you cut Botham's bowling career shot, Imran still comes out looking significantly better - especially given the dramatic improvement he made with the bat from the time he made his first hundred onwards.

 

[Swervy]

must........resist.....getting....dragged....into.....yet......another..........Imran.....vs.....Botham .......thread.........but....I....am.....getting.....weaker.......must......find.....inner....strength.....

 

[silentstriker]

The 1977-1981 Botham was quite possibly the finest cricketer to play the game since Bradman.

If you look at the whole career, Imran proved himself to be one of the all time great fast bowlers, which Botham could not say. Overall, Imran > Botham no contest.

But 1977-1981 Botham = God playing cricket. No kidding.

 

[Days of Grace]

Just did a session on statsguru. Imran's stats from 1980 to the end of his career are amazing:

Batting:
2975 runs at 46.48

Bowling:
264 wkts at 22.48

Incredible stats really. Better than Sobers actually in terms of contributing in both disciplines brilliantly.

 

[pasag]

must........resist.....getting....dragged....into.....yet......another..........Imran.....vs.....Botham .......thread.........but....I....am.....getting.....weaker.......must......find.....inner....strength.....

 

[Richard]

must........resist.....getting....dragged....into.....yet......another..........Imran.....vs.....Botham .......thread.........but....I....am.....getting.....weaker.......must......find.....inner....strength.....

Just did a session on statsguru. Imran's stats from 1980 to the end of his career are amazing:

Batting:
2975 runs at 46.48

Bowling:
264 wkts at 22.48

Incredible stats really. Better than Sobers actually in terms of contributing in both disciplines brilliantly.

 

[Beleg]

Hyperbole.

WI dude scoring 5/6 centuries consecutively
early Waqar Younis
Wasim Akram in the 90's
ricky ponting during the 00's
tendulkar during the 90's

and scores of others

 

[silentstriker]

Imran's last fifty tests:

2390 @ 51.95
195 wickets @ 20.12

But really, this debate has been done to death.

 

[silentstriker]

Hyperbole.

WI dude scoring 5/6 centuries consecutively
early Waqar Younis
Wasim Akram in the 90's
ricky ponting during the 00's
tendulkar during the 90's

and scores of others

Not like Botham. Combining both disciplines like that. His bowling was as good as any bowler's peak, while his batting was top three in the world. That's insane.

 

[Richard]

NNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[silentstriker]

NNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You all right there?

 

[Richard]

But really, this debate has been done to death.

If the last time had been 6 months ago, I'd probably be fine with it.

But that Sobers... black magic thread of BhupinderSingh's has barely gone cold in the 10th page.

 

[Days of Grace]

Richard, thou art a bigot.

Good night lad.

 

[Beleg]

nah

ricky ponting's sustained success during the 00's been amazing - again, against much much better quality and more verstile bowlers compared to those botham played against during 77-81

in that, botham's bowling average against WI is over 30 and his batting average hovers around 16, from a fairly big sample size. his stats against the other teams are pretty good admittedly but nothing extraordinary.

i dont care for extrapolation of potential

somebody performing in 8 countries against 8 different teams is a much better player than somebody who performed well in 2 countries against 4 different teams

 

[Dissector]

Imran without any doubt. The third greatest cricketer of all-time IMO when you factor in his captaincy.

Botham was amazing especially in his peak period but his early record was helped by Packer-weakened sides and he never did much against the best team of his time.