**Official** England in New Zealand

[GIMH]

I'll see how we get on before I pass judgement...I was surprised by this, though

 

[gettingbetter]

Because the English selectors believe that Strauss' issues are temperamental and not technical. Which is about as ludicrous as thinking that Bopara had it in him to be a test class bat.

I hope you mean for now in regards to Rav B.

 

[gettingbetter]

I don't have a particular fondness for Prior, but selectorial consistency demands Mustard goes into the 1st test, given he was the back-up for Sri Lanka, surely? &, given he's at best no more than Prior's equal with the gloves and probably not as good with the bat, it really beggars belief.

That said, given our alleged selectorial consistency is of the non-existant variety I suspect Ambrose will play.

Not always, AFAIC, Ambrose and Mustard are on the same playing field. Although, you'd think, in theory that Mustard is ahead.

BTW, this is why I prefer reading and analysing English cricket more often than Australia (btw, I'm Aussie if you haven't noticed). English cricket is like a cheessy day time soap with characters having affairs while Australian cricket is too stable to interest me.

 

[gettingbetter]

Good to see Ambrose in the mix, you can't fluke a 251*.

Yeah, J. Gillespie agrees too .

 

[gettingbetter]

Ive not looked at the Lions squad but Ive seen the England squad and that Panesar and Flintoff will play with the Lions.

Given that, I thought Id have a crack at list in a Lions Team excluding the England squad players and compare it to what was selected.

Was tougher than I thought

Anyway, I was looking for 4 types of players that this type of tour benefits and whos inclusion benefits England

a) Experienced back-ups that need to be kept in the system and part of the England set-up to come in if loss of form or injury to others.

b) England first team players looking to work on form or match fitness

c) Young players that extra experience will help them push for positions in the short term future and put them on the edge of the England scene

d) Inexperinced players with potential that can be blooded and brought into the England fold. An investment that probably will not yeild a return for at least a few years.

Basically, players that have a chance to play for England ranging from now to 10 years time. Players unlikely to be considered for England should not be considered

With that in mind, here is my squad

[B]Batsmen (7)[/B]
Flintoff [I](Test cricketer)[/I]
Samit Patel (23 or younger)
Godleman (23 or younger)
Key [I](Test cricketer)[/I]
Denly (23 or younger)
Ed Joyce [I](Test cricketer)[/I]
Hildreth (23 or younger)


[B]Keepers (2)[/B]
Prior [I](Test cricketer)[/I]
Davis (23 or younger)

[B]Allrounder (1)[/B]
Bopara (23 or younger) [I](Test cricketer)[/I]

[B]Seam Bowlers (4)[/B]
Steven Finn (23 or younger)
Tremlett [I](Test cricketer)[/I]
Plunkett (23 or younger) [I](Test cricketer)[/I]
AN Other

[B]Spin Bowlers (2)[/B]
Panesar [I](Test cricketer)[/I]
Rashid (23 or younger)

Opinions? As you can see Im stil making up mymind for the 4th Seamer spot. Possible that there is too much batting as well. Maybe lose a bat and add a bowler or allrounder

I like it Goughy. good theory, even though those players deserve to be there, there are probably some who should be there - maybe due to bias on my party.

For the seamers, England have trialed so many, these tours are probably good to actually hone in on someone and develop their skills.
- Mahmood: don't care what you guys say, the guy obviously has a lot of skills that many English bowlers don't have; speed, a good slower ball and the odd Malinga type delivery. he has had a rest due to a hernia problem and finished the CC season off well
- Plunkett: similar to Mahmood
- Tremlett: did well wehn he had the opportunity to play for England

I understand you wanting to blood youngsters, but when there are so many who are still in the fold, its no really worthwhile them wasting their off season.

Batsmen: don't really want Freddie there, wait until he is fully fit. Patel, Denly and Joyce look like good prospects, not so much Joyce considering that his time is running out. Goodleman fell away dramatically and i can't recall too much about Hildreth. Probably worthwhile to give Goodleman another year in CC before bringing him on such a tour - I did have high hopes for him at the start of the CC season.

Maybe Carberry in for Goodleman?

I like who you've selected for the spinners and all-rounder positions.

 

[ozone]

Not always, AFAIC, Ambrose and Mustard are on the same playing field. Although, you'd think, in theory that Mustard is ahead.

I don't really think the selectors ever wanted to use Mustard as a FC keeper. If they had, it just demonstartes the idiocy because Mustard has never been a great FC player.

 

[Goughy]

I like it Goughy. good theory, even though those players deserve to be there, there are probably some who should be there - maybe due to bias on my party.

For the seamers, England have trialed so many, these tours are probably good to actually hone in on someone and develop their skills.
- Mahmood: don't care what you guys say, the guy obviously has a lot of skills that many English bowlers don't have; speed, a good slower ball and the odd Malinga type delivery. he has had a rest due to a hernia problem and finished the CC season off well
- Plunkett: similar to Mahmood
- Tremlett: did well wehn he had the opportunity to play for England

I understand you wanting to blood youngsters, but when there are so many who are still in the fold, its no really worthwhile them wasting their off season.

Batsmen: don't really want Freddie there, wait until he is fully fit. Patel, Denly and Joyce look like good prospects, not so much Joyce considering that his time is running out. Goodleman fell away dramatically and i can't recall too much about Hildreth. Probably worthwhile to give Goodleman another year in CC before bringing him on such a tour - I did have high hopes for him at the start of the CC season.

Maybe Carberry in for Goodleman?

I like who you've selected for the spinners and all-rounder positions.

Saj will never get near a team I select. a) He isnt very good b) He is in his mid 20s already and c) he isnt an automatic pick for his county and d) He has done nothing to deserve being selected thoughout his career

I wouldnt select Carberry, he had a good year last year but he is 27 and isnt an England prospect. A decent County cricketer but an A side (or Lions) must focus on players that could be England cricketers. Carberry isnt (or at least shouldnt) be a potential Test player.

There is no point England investing time, money and effort to guys unlikely to play at the highest level. Best to focus on those close right now and those for the future.

 

[gettingbetter]

OH well, don't expect many to agree with me on Mahmood, but Carberry? His FC stats may not be as good as Joyce's, but his last two seasons have been good. Add to that, that Joyce is older and probably has the same chance of Carberry as being an England prospect.

 

[ozone]

I wouldnt select Carberry, he had a good year last year but he is 27 and isnt an England prospect. A decent County cricketer but an A side (or Lions) must focus on players that could be England cricketers. Carberry isnt (or at least shouldnt) be a potential Test player.

Andrew Strauss - debut at 27
Ryan Sidebottom - debut at 23 but established at 29

Being 27 shouldn't matter. If you go back a few years, there were loads of players not debuting until mid-20's (e.g. Alec Stewart, 27 at debut)

Saw Carberry bat for Hampshire and he just looked a higher standard. Defo deserves a chance to prove himself in 'A' side IMO.

 

[Goughy]

Andrew Strauss - debut at 27
Ryan Sidebottom - debut at 23 but established at 29

Being 27 shouldn't matter. If you go back a few years, there were loads of players not debuting until mid-20's (e.g. Alec Stewart, 27 at debut)

Saw Carberry bat for Hampshire and he just looked a higher standard. Defo deserves a chance to prove himself in 'A' side IMO.

He isnt going to debut tomorrow at age 27, it going to be down the line and there are a number of guys ahead of him. If he plays for England another case of thowing huge numbers of players at spots and hoping some stick

Some say that might be unlucky but plenty of guys are unlucky such as Sales for example

 

[ozone]

He isnt going to debut tomorrow at age 27, it going to be down the line and there are a number of guys ahead of him. If he plays for England another case of thowing huge numbers of players at spots and hoping some stick

Some say that might be unlucky but plenty of guys are unlucky such as Sales for example

TBH, if he has another good season like the past couple, the weight of runs should throw his name into the selection hat although as Ramps proves, runs in FC cricket don't mean much if the selectors don't like you.

 

[gettingbetter]

He isnt going to debut tomorrow at age 27, it going to be down the line and there are a number of guys ahead of him. If he plays for England another case of thowing huge numbers of players at spots and hoping some stick

Some say that might be unlucky but plenty of guys are unlucky such as Sales for example

Joyce?

 

[Richard]

TBH, if he has another good season like the past couple, the weight of runs should throw his name into the selection hat although as Ramps proves, runs in FC cricket don't mean much if the selectors don't like you.

I highly doubt they don't like Ramprakash, they just place what's already gone by in his Test career above the last 2 seasons.

Whether that's wise or not I honestly don't know, but I think going back to Ramprakash would be unwise, a huge risk. And this is from someone who's time and again argued Ramprakash's Test career was actually better than some seem to think.

 

[Richard]

Annoyed about Strauss's recall, I was looking forward to him playing for the Northern Knights this summer. He was playing for an NZ FC side so he could adjust to conditions and hopefully get some runs under his belt to earn a recall. TBH if he faces much of O'Brien in the tests down here then he'll be fine. Hope Franklin kicks that talentless waste of space out of the kiwi test team.

Strauss was only ever down to play one-day cricket, not First-Class, and UIMM that is still scheduled, the stint wasn't during the Test series.

 

[ozone]

I highly doubt they don't like Ramprakash, they just place what's already gone by in his Test career above the last 2 seasons.

Yea, thats probably not fair but they certainly have some good reason not to pick him which isn't completely clear to everyone else.

 

[Goughy]

Ramprakash is an interesting topic.

A LOOONG time ago I wrote a number of articles criticising the selection of Ramprakash and his constant yo-yoing in and out of the side.

However, Im a firm believer that a Test side isnt a nursery school and that the best 11 players need to be on the field.

Players are allowed to improve and get more in tune with their game as they mature.

If Ramps is viewed as one of the best 6 batsmen in the country then he should be selected regardless of age.

I personally dont mind either way, but I wouldnt want him excluded for his age or what happened 10 years ago.

 

[Richard]

Failures are failures, however long ago they were (and the last time he was a genuine out-and-out failure was indeed 11 years ago). I don't really like the fact that it's almost assumed that Ramprakash if picked now would no longer have the problems he had back in the mid-1990s and to a lesser extent in the late-1990s and early-2000s.

Ramprakash has had sensational seasons before now. What he's done in the last 2 seasons is not unprecedented. If you decided to drop him in 2002, there's no sense bringing him back now. Granted, of those who made that decision, only 2 out of 4 remain.

Had he been retained in 2002, unlike some, I'd not have been outraged. I honestly think he might quite possibly have scored that summer, and who knows, become a fixture once again.

But I really don't think it makes much sense bringing him back now. That he is 38 is no problem; that he has been dropped (multiple times) because it was decided his temperament was found time and again to be not good enough is.

 

[PhoenixFire]

Andrew Flintoff as a specialist batsman anywhere in FC cricket is a disgrace. I am entirely serious in saying he couldn't cut it now as a specialist batsman in CC Div 2/

 

[Goughy]

Failures are failures, however long ago they were (and the last time he was a genuine out-and-out failure was indeed 11 years ago). I don't really like the fact that it's almost assumed that Ramprakash if picked now would no longer have the problems he had back in the mid-1990s and to a lesser extent in the late-1990s and early-2000s.

Ramprakash has had sensational seasons before now. What he's done in the last 2 seasons is not unprecedented. If you decided to drop him in 2002, there's no sense bringing him back now. Granted, of those who made that decision, only 2 out of 4 remain.

Had he been retained in 2002, unlike some, I'd not have been outraged. I honestly think he might quite possibly have scored that summer, and who knows, become a fixture once again.

But I really don't think it makes much sense bringing him back now. That he is 38 is no problem; that he has been dropped (multiple times) because it was decided his temperament was found time and again to be not good enough is.

Id like some examples to back the bolded statement up please.

Also, its such a while since he last played, Id consider any recall as a second career virtually unrelated to the first.

Ive no idea if Ramprakash would be a success but given most of his issues in his younger days were with attitude and temprerment its cetainly possible that his huge weakness has lessened with age, maturity and getting more comfortable in his own body.

 

[ozone]

Failures are failures, however long ago they were (and the last time he was a genuine out-and-out failure was indeed 11 years ago). I don't really like the fact that it's almost assumed that Ramprakash if picked now would no longer have the problems he had back in the mid-1990s and to a lesser extent in the late-1990s and early-2000s.

Of course, it is impossible to know how Ramps would bat now, but he has still scored more runs than anyone else in the past two seasons and therefore should have been given a chance. As you say yourself, it has been 11 years since he failed and so his problems back then have probably been sorted out today. However, I agree that at 38 and nearly 39 by the time the next selection is made, it is probably too late to even be considering him.