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Rahul Dravid and Ricky Ponting

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Well, I am sure you could also name me a few times where Dravid couldn't save his team either. If they did, almost everytime, then they'd never lose.
Apart from the fact that that isn't true (57* out of 190ao isn't particularly likely to save you from defeat), yes, there will have been plenty of times that Dravid couldn't play a lone hand - so? As I say, he's played it far more often than Ponting has, and had an equally if not more talented batting-line-up around him.
Ponting isn't the sort to play that innings because Ponting never has to. He's had one of the greatest opening partnerships playing with him. By the time he comes in he can do what he wants, and he does it well and consistently. Can't fault him for that. I think he certainly has that ability to play that gritty innings and I think he has the toughest mentality of the lot ,in the Aussies.
Just because he's had one of the most successful opening partnerships above him doesn't mean they succeed remotely close to every time. Ponting has participated in innings where Australia's top-order has been knocked-over more than enough times, and usually, because of the type of player he is, when that happens he's one of those that gets knocked-over. Whereas Stephen Waugh - even though he typically batted a bit lower in the order - did the one-man-salvation-act more times than I can possibly remember.
 

Beleg

International Regular
the two best batsmen in the world at the moment. (and two all time greats)

i'll leave it at that.
 

Burgey

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Do you think Ponting would have been as "match-winning" if he played for India? I think not. Coming into bat when the opposition bowled out for just about 200 is a luxury that most batsmen in the world would kill for and Ponting has had that luxury throughout his career.
Seriously, this argument about coming in at certain stages and not being under pressure etc. etc. is getting as old as my current pair of business shoes which are down at heel and have holes in their soles.

Can the same posters who say Ponting's greatness (if he's to be considered great) is qualified by the fact that he has had Warne & McGrath in the team or batted behind Langer & Hayden please apply the same reasoning to the following:

1. Viv Richards, who played with the best pace attack of all time and batted behind Greenidge & Haynes with Richardson, Gomes, Lloyd & Dujon in the team as well.
2. Wally Hammond who batted in his early years behind Hobbs & Sutcliffe.
3. Bradman, who batted behind Woodfull & Ponsford, and who had O'Reilly & Grimmett in the early years, with Lindwall, Miller & Johnston in the later years.
4. Dravid himself, who has had Tendulkar and Ganguly with him as well as Sehwag when he's been playing well.

Furthermore, Dravid has failed as many times as Ponting. If he hadn't his average would be miles ahead. Of course Ponting has failed in innings where Australia has been knocked over cheaply, as has Dravid with India. It's going to happen from time to time.

We always hear about Ponting not playing well against good bowling, but he fair dinkum owns Murali, who's the best bowler around at the moment. I also refer to his second innings of the third test in the 05 Ashes series (again).

Dravid and Ponting are both superb players. Their skills were displayed so well the last time India toured here - they were masterful.

In recent years, I've marvelled at Ponting's ability in the first, say, three tests of a 5 test series or the first two tests of a three test series. The exception being the Ashes in 05 where he was not as dominant as usual. He is the key to Australia's batting, more than any other player. Fact is, when he performs, Australia score massive runs and generally win, because he scores quickly and sets up the tome of the match with a big innings. When he doesn't the other players in the middle order have from time to time failed to step up.

So when people say that he's failed when Australia have scored low totals, perhaps they've failed because he's not scored as heavily, rather than him failing when they're in trouble. In other words, it's his dismissal which places Australia in trouble rather than them being in trouble, and him not responding.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
That's certainly a perfectly reasonable point you make, but it tends to be more relative to the merits of the rest of the Australian order rather than Ponting himself.

As I say - Dravid has stood alone as India has fallen around him plenty of times. That doesn't in itself make Dravid a better player, and I'm not claiming it does - just that it stops the fact that, given a similar situation with Ponting, a team total would likely be higher, from saying that Ponting is the better batsman.
 

Burgey

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Says a lot about the virtues of cricket that you can have two players who approach things from contrasting approaches, yet both are really good players.

I think Steve Waugh rated Dravid the mentally strongest cricketer he played against. There's certainly a lot of mutual respect - Dravid wrote the foreward to Waugh's autobiography.
 

sohummisra

U19 Debutant
Seriously, this argument about coming in at certain stages and not being under pressure etc. etc. is getting as old as my current pair of business shoes which are down at heel and have holes in their soles.

Can the same posters who say Ponting's greatness (if he's to be considered great) is qualified by the fact that he has had Warne & McGrath in the team or batted behind Langer & Hayden please apply the same reasoning to the following:
Well you've misunderstood my argument. I argue that Ponting is not the better batsman because he is more dominant or because he's a matchwinner--which is the opinion of a few posters in this thread. He may well be the better batsman for other reasons, but I don't feel that those two are valid because of what has been presented.

The argument may be old but the point is still valid. Ponting is a naturally aggressive player and when the pressure is off, he's good enough to score big. So I suggest you go fix your business shoes and postpone buying a new pair.
 

Burgey

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I take your point. All I'm saying is that there is, frankly, little merit in the argument that his runs need to be de-valued in some way because he's in a strong side (not saying you posted this, but I've seen it said before). I'd be more open to that argument if he batted at say, 6 or 7 and didn't score anything when the side's in strife, but he comes in at no. 3 which is really a pressure position, especially in the first innings of a test. Same for Dravid, btw.

I say that because 1 for may not be a big deal on the first morning of a test match, but 2 for not many surely is.

Sure it's true to say that Dravid doesn't have as many opportunities to be known as a test match winning player, but I for one don't de-value him for that one whit. For backs-to-the-wall grittiness, there are few better. He's stil capable of the match winning innings though - Adelaide last time India were here and also the famous 2001 follow-on match as well.

A point of difference - difference, not superiority - may be that Ponting seems able to set the tone for an Australian innings so well, and often a series. He often seems to set up this aura that the other side just have a hell of a time over-coming when it comes to getting him out.

Those posters who are from the sub-continent may be able to comment on this better than I can so I'll throw it up as a point - when Australia go to the sub-continent, they often say that they have to play a more patient game when they are batting (they don't always do it very wel btw). Is that a fair thing to say re. the conditions on the sub-continent? Because if it is, I'm wondering whether that may explain the perception some have as to Dravid being a more cautious player than Ponting. Is it a factor in the way his game/ technique has developed?

Edit: I'll put the shoes in this arvo.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
That's the key point. And your last sentence is just a theory based on the way he plays in conditions that are unlike how he normally plays.
Yes, but it isn't theory if he's done it already - I think his Ashes knock has already been mentioned here.


Apart from the fact that that isn't true (57* out of 190ao isn't particularly likely to save you from defeat), yes, there will have been plenty of times that Dravid couldn't play a lone hand - so? As I say, he's played it far more often than Ponting has, and had an equally if not more talented batting-line-up around him.
Which is my point regarding the bowling line-ups. But I don't consider 57/190 a gritty innings of the kind that we're talking about here.

Just because he's had one of the most successful opening partnerships above him doesn't mean they succeed remotely close to every time. Ponting has participated in innings where Australia's top-order has been knocked-over more than enough times, and usually, because of the type of player he is, when that happens he's one of those that gets knocked-over. Whereas Stephen Waugh - even though he typically batted a bit lower in the order - did the one-man-salvation-act more times than I can possibly remember.
But here's the thing, I am not disputing the chance never comes up, I am disputing the fact that it doesn't come up much. And mostly, when it does, Ponting has more or less wiped out the opposition himself, even if his openers have failed, and he still hasn't had to play that kind of innings. And if he doesn't save it on his own, then he still has batsmen from 4-7 who are capable of still saving that innings. So, it's not like he was batting with his #7 trying to raise a score of 150 on the board and save his team regularly. Australia are rarely in that position.
 
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Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Seriously, this argument about coming in at certain stages and not being under pressure etc. etc. is getting as old as my current pair of business shoes which are down at heel and have holes in their soles.

Can the same posters who say Ponting's greatness (if he's to be considered great) is qualified by the fact that he has had Warne & McGrath in the team or batted behind Langer & Hayden please apply the same reasoning to the following:

1. Viv Richards, who played with the best pace attack of all time and batted behind Greenidge & Haynes with Richardson, Gomes, Lloyd & Dujon in the team as well.
2. Wally Hammond who batted in his early years behind Hobbs & Sutcliffe.
3. Bradman, who batted behind Woodfull & Ponsford, and who had O'Reilly & Grimmett in the early years, with Lindwall, Miller & Johnston in the later years.
4. Dravid himself, who has had Tendulkar and Ganguly with him as well as Sehwag when he's been playing well.

Furthermore, Dravid has failed as many times as Ponting. If he hadn't his average would be miles ahead. Of course Ponting has failed in innings where Australia has been knocked over cheaply, as has Dravid with India. It's going to happen from time to time.

We always hear about Ponting not playing well against good bowling, but he fair dinkum owns Murali, who's the best bowler around at the moment. I also refer to his second innings of the third test in the 05 Ashes series (again).

Dravid and Ponting are both superb players. Their skills were displayed so well the last time India toured here - they were masterful.

In recent years, I've marvelled at Ponting's ability in the first, say, three tests of a 5 test series or the first two tests of a three test series. The exception being the Ashes in 05 where he was not as dominant as usual. He is the key to Australia's batting, more than any other player. Fact is, when he performs, Australia score massive runs and generally win, because he scores quickly and sets up the tome of the match with a big innings. When he doesn't the other players in the middle order have from time to time failed to step up.

So when people say that he's failed when Australia have scored low totals, perhaps they've failed because he's not scored as heavily, rather than him failing when they're in trouble. In other words, it's his dismissal which places Australia in trouble rather than them being in trouble, and him not responding.
Excellent post! :thumbs_up
 

Fiery

Banned
Yousuf isn't fit to shine Dravid's boots as a batsman.
Not fit to shine his boots?

2006 : M I NO Runs HS Ave 100
Yousef 11 19 1 1788 202 99.33 9
Dravid 12 22 4 1095 146 60.83 3

Overall:

Yousuf: ave 56.00, 23 100's in 75 games
Dravid ave 57.46, 24 100's in 109 games
 

Perm

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I'm talking about the present time...
Yeah, and? Granted that Yousuf has been in better form as of late, but the attacks he has faced haven't been that flash. Yousuf has very rarely scored against good teams, witness his poor record against Australia and South Africa.
 

Pup Clarke

Cricketer Of The Year
Yeah, and? Granted that Yousuf has been in better form as of late, but the attacks he has faced haven't been that flash. Yousuf has very rarely scored against good teams, witness his poor record against Australia and South Africa.
Doesn't matter, at the present time Ricky Ponting and Mohammed Yousuf are the two best batsmen in test cricket.
 

Perm

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Doesn't matter, at the present time Ricky Ponting and Mohammed Yousuf are the two best batsmen in test cricket.
No they aren't. Mohammad Yousuf doesn't deserve to be ranked that highly, I'm not sure how well some of the other batsman like Kallis are going in Test cricket, but Dravid is above Yousuf.
 

Pup Clarke

Cricketer Of The Year
Dravid may be a better batsmen overall than Yousuf but at the moment because of his outstanding year he is placed ahead of Dravid at this present time.
 

Perm

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Dravid may be a better batsmen overall than Yousuf but at the moment because of his outstanding year he is placed ahead of Dravid at this present time.
Because of his ability to score runs on flat. I don't think so. The only time that Yousuf and Pakistan were under a lot of pressure on a difficult track was against England at Headingly, and Yousuf was found wanting.
 

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