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Thread: Whats Wrong With Southerners?

  1. #1
    Hall of Fame Member Goughy's Avatar
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    Whats Wrong With Southerners?

    Since 1950 England have had 18 fast-fast/medium bowlers debut that have taken at least 100 wickets in Tests.

    Of those 18 (listed below) only 2 of them were born and raised in Southern England. That is a significant and disproportionally (in populations terms) small number.

    So why don't people born and raised in the South (or of Southern stock) become good quick bowlers?

    English quicks since 1950 with 100 or more Test wickets (Southern in Red)
    EDIT- Foreign born in blue

    SJ Harmison 2002-2007
    MJ Hoggard 2000-2007
    A Flintoff 1998-2007
    DG Cork 1995-2002
    D Gough 1994-2003
    AR Caddick 1993-2003
    ARC Fraser 1989-1998
    DE Malcolm 1989-1997
    PAJ DeFreitas 1986-1995

    GR Dilley 1979-1989
    IT Botham 1977-1992
    CM Old 1972-1981
    AW Greig 1972-1977
    RGD Willis 1971-1984
    GG Arnold 1967-1975
    JA Snow 1965-1976
    FS Trueman 1952-1965
    JB Statham 1951-1965
    Last edited by Goughy; 11-06-2007 at 04:57 AM.
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  2. #2
    Hall of Fame Member steds's Avatar
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    Lol.

    Tbf,
    Quote Originally Posted by Goughy View Post
    AW Greig 1972-1977
    you can't get much more southern than South Africa.

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    Global Moderator Matt79's Avatar
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    Yeah, they're not all Northerners either:
    Malcolm, de Freitas and Greig are all from elsewhere, while Fraser is Scottish IIRC?
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    International Coach HeathDavisSpeed's Avatar
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    John Lever would have taken 100 wickets if he hadn't gone on a rebel tour (as I recall)

    Mark Ilott should have taken 100 wickets as well with his fiery brand of medium left-armers.
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    The Wheel is Forever silentstriker's Avatar
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    Similar thing with all (and I mean all) Pakistani fast bowlers to have taken like 100 wickets coming out of the same area of Pakistan. Genetically speaking, there is a clear difference between people in various areas.

    I for one support the invasion of Pakistan so we can claim those areas as our own :P. On topic though, I didn't know it was this marked in England too...is there a similar difference in body type/build between northern and southern England?
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeathDavisSpeed View Post
    Mark Ilott should have taken 100 wickets as well with his fiery brand of medium left-armers.
    He doesn't bowl anything like me!


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    International Coach HeathDavisSpeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiery View Post
    He doesn't bowl anything like me!

    You know, as I typed that, I had this feeling you'd pick up on that, Bully-Boy Then I thought to myself, nah, Fiery's not that sharp is he? I thought Mark Ilott was more likely to object to the comparison.... then I remembered how bad he was

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    Quote Originally Posted by HeathDavisSpeed View Post
    You know, as I typed that, I had this feeling you'd pick up on that, Bully-Boy Then I thought to myself, nah, Fiery's not that sharp is he? I thought Mark Ilott was more likely to object to the comparison.... then I remembered how bad he was
    Trust me, he would object to the comparison

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    Cricketer Of The Year wpdavid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt79 View Post
    Yeah, they're not all Northerners either:
    Malcolm, de Freitas and Greig are all from elsewhere, while Fraser is Scottish IIRC?

    No, born in Lancashire, which is presumably why Goughy claimed him. Of course, he learnt his trade at Middlesex though. And Willis did likewise at Surrey, although originally from the North East.

    Interesting question though. Maybe it's something to do with conditions up north traditionally suiting seamers more than down here, so more of them develop. Or more of them get the sort of figures that lead to selection. I think Martin Bicknell would have played more tests if he hadn't played his home games at the Oval.

    And there was probably a class issue regarding how southern gentlemen saw their role in the game, which may, on some level, still inhabit people's thinking.
    Last edited by wpdavid; 11-06-2007 at 02:45 AM.

  10. #10
    Hall of Fame Member Goughy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt79 View Post
    Yeah, they're not all Northerners either:
    Malcolm, de Freitas and Greig are all from elsewhere, while Fraser is Scottish IIRC?
    Fraser is from Lancashire

    Quote Originally Posted by silentstriker View Post
    On topic though, I didn't know it was this marked in England too...is there a similar difference in body type/build between northern and southern England?
    Probably nothing that is immediately obvious though stereotypically there may be. Probably more of a cultural thing than a physical thing. People in England are very mixed and hard to stereotype though there historical differences. The areas of the North and the East we settled by Scandinavians during and after the Viking expansion of the 8th century and the (mixed) Scandinavian background of many people makes them historically different to those of the traditional kingdoms of Wessex and Mercia (South and West England).

    Though personally I dont think there can be that much difference in this day and age.
    Last edited by Goughy; 11-06-2007 at 02:32 AM.

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    Hall of Fame Member Goughy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wpdavid View Post

    Interesting question though. Maybe it's something to do with conditions up north traditionally suiting seamers more than down here, so more of them develop. Or more of them get the sort of figures that lead to selection. I think Martin Bicknell would have played more tests if he hadn't played his home games at the Oval.

    And there was probably a class issue regarding how southern gentlemen saw their role in the game, which may, on some level, still inhabit people's thinking.
    Obviously I dont know for sure but Id be inclined to say there is a different perspective on the game. Whether that could be easily and clearly defined as a class matter would be tough to say but maybe true.

    Im not convinced about the tracks as a number of the gys like Botham, Snow, Fraser and Willis were born elsewhere but spent a large part of their cricketing development in the South. More likely there is a cultural reason why ex-pat Northerners continue to develop in advance of the far larger local Southern population.

  12. #12
    Cricketer Of The Year wpdavid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goughy View Post
    Obviously I dont know for sure but Id be inclined to say there is a different perspective on the game. Whether that could be easily and clearly defined as a class matter would be tough to say but maybe true.

    Im not convinced about the tracks as a number of the gys like Botham, Snow, Fraser and Willis were born elsewhere but spent a large part of their cricketing development in the South. More likely there is a cultural reason why ex-pat Northerners continue to develop in advance of the far larger local Southern population.
    Overall, I think you're right. What was originally an issue of class and amatuer/professional distinction is probably a more subliminal cultural perspective nowadays. As for tracks, I don't think it's the biggest issue either, although I reckon there are exceptions.

    btw I wonder if there's a similar, but reversed, trend for batsmen who have managed to score, say, 4,000 test runs.

    These are entirely off the top of my head, so be kind to me, but from those first appearing after WW2, maybe we have
    Cowdrey
    Graveney
    May
    Dexter
    Barrington
    Edrich
    Boycott
    Amiss
    Fletcher
    Gooch
    Gower
    Gatting
    Broad
    Stewart
    Hussain
    Atherton
    Thorpe
    Vaughan
    Trescothick


    Any errors or omissions?
    And why the southern bias?

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    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Well if there's a pattern for bowlers, it makes sense that there'd be the inverse for the batsmen!
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    Hall of Fame Member Goughy's Avatar
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    England Players debuting Post-WW2 with over 4000 Test runs (Southern born and raised in red) (overseas born in blue)

    ME Trescothick
    MP Vaughan
    MA Butcher
    GP Thorpe

    N Hussain
    AJ Stewart
    MA Atherton
    RA Smith
    AJ Lamb

    MW Gatting
    DI Gower

    IT Botham
    GA Gooch
    APE Knott

    G Boycott
    JH Edrich
    ER Dexter
    KF Barrington
    MC Cowdrey
    TW Graveney
    PBH May

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    Hall of Fame Member Goughy's Avatar
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    Not quite as significant as the fast bowling but there is a definate Southern flavour to the batting.

    It is an interesting question as to why? As with the bowling, maybe its a residual cultural hangover from the old Am/Pro days, or possibly more likely the selectors have had streotypes in their heads and liked the idea of a bluff Northerner doing the hard work and having batsmen from fashionable and important counties doing the batting.

    There surely is an element of regional bias involved in both areas, just a matter of how much.

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