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Whats Wrong With Southerners?

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
Since 1950 England have had 18 fast-fast/medium bowlers debut that have taken at least 100 wickets in Tests.

Of those 18 (listed below) only 2 of them were born and raised in Southern England. That is a significant and disproportionally (in populations terms) small number.

So why don't people born and raised in the South (or of Southern stock) become good quick bowlers?

English quicks since 1950 with 100 or more Test wickets (Southern in Red)
EDIT- Foreign born in blue

SJ Harmison 2002-2007
MJ Hoggard 2000-2007
A Flintoff 1998-2007
DG Cork 1995-2002
D Gough 1994-2003
AR Caddick 1993-2003
ARC Fraser 1989-1998
DE Malcolm 1989-1997
PAJ DeFreitas 1986-1995

GR Dilley 1979-1989
IT Botham 1977-1992
CM Old 1972-1981
AW Greig 1972-1977
RGD Willis 1971-1984
GG Arnold 1967-1975
JA Snow 1965-1976
FS Trueman 1952-1965
JB Statham 1951-1965
 
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Matt79

Global Moderator
Yeah, they're not all Northerners either:
Malcolm, de Freitas and Greig are all from elsewhere, while Fraser is Scottish IIRC?
 

HeathDavisSpeed

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
John Lever would have taken 100 wickets if he hadn't gone on a rebel tour (as I recall)

Mark Ilott should have taken 100 wickets as well with his fiery brand of medium left-armers.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
Similar thing with all (and I mean all) Pakistani fast bowlers to have taken like 100 wickets coming out of the same area of Pakistan. Genetically speaking, there is a clear difference between people in various areas.

I for one support the invasion of Pakistan so we can claim those areas as our own :P. On topic though, I didn't know it was this marked in England too...is there a similar difference in body type/build between northern and southern England?
 

HeathDavisSpeed

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
He doesn't bowl anything like me!

:ph34r:
You know, as I typed that, I had this feeling you'd pick up on that, Bully-Boy ;) Then I thought to myself, nah, Fiery's not that sharp is he? I thought Mark Ilott was more likely to object to the comparison.... then I remembered how bad he was :unsure:
 

Fiery

Banned
You know, as I typed that, I had this feeling you'd pick up on that, Bully-Boy ;) Then I thought to myself, nah, Fiery's not that sharp is he? I thought Mark Ilott was more likely to object to the comparison.... then I remembered how bad he was :unsure:
Trust me, he would object to the comparison :dry:
 

wpdavid

Hall of Fame Member
Yeah, they're not all Northerners either:
Malcolm, de Freitas and Greig are all from elsewhere, while Fraser is Scottish IIRC?

No, born in Lancashire, which is presumably why Goughy claimed him. Of course, he learnt his trade at Middlesex though. And Willis did likewise at Surrey, although originally from the North East.

Interesting question though. Maybe it's something to do with conditions up north traditionally suiting seamers more than down here, so more of them develop. Or more of them get the sort of figures that lead to selection. I think Martin Bicknell would have played more tests if he hadn't played his home games at the Oval.

And there was probably a class issue regarding how southern gentlemen saw their role in the game, which may, on some level, still inhabit people's thinking.
 
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Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
Yeah, they're not all Northerners either:
Malcolm, de Freitas and Greig are all from elsewhere, while Fraser is Scottish IIRC?
Fraser is from Lancashire

On topic though, I didn't know it was this marked in England too...is there a similar difference in body type/build between northern and southern England?
Probably nothing that is immediately obvious though stereotypically there may be. Probably more of a cultural thing than a physical thing. People in England are very mixed and hard to stereotype though there historical differences. The areas of the North and the East we settled by Scandinavians during and after the Viking expansion of the 8th century and the (mixed) Scandinavian background of many people makes them historically different to those of the traditional kingdoms of Wessex and Mercia (South and West England).

Though personally I dont think there can be that much difference in this day and age.
 
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Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
Interesting question though. Maybe it's something to do with conditions up north traditionally suiting seamers more than down here, so more of them develop. Or more of them get the sort of figures that lead to selection. I think Martin Bicknell would have played more tests if he hadn't played his home games at the Oval.

And there was probably a class issue regarding how southern gentlemen saw their role in the game, which may, on some level, still inhabit people's thinking.
Obviously I dont know for sure but Id be inclined to say there is a different perspective on the game. Whether that could be easily and clearly defined as a class matter would be tough to say but maybe true.

Im not convinced about the tracks as a number of the gys like Botham, Snow, Fraser and Willis were born elsewhere but spent a large part of their cricketing development in the South. More likely there is a cultural reason why ex-pat Northerners continue to develop in advance of the far larger local Southern population.
 

wpdavid

Hall of Fame Member
Obviously I dont know for sure but Id be inclined to say there is a different perspective on the game. Whether that could be easily and clearly defined as a class matter would be tough to say but maybe true.

Im not convinced about the tracks as a number of the gys like Botham, Snow, Fraser and Willis were born elsewhere but spent a large part of their cricketing development in the South. More likely there is a cultural reason why ex-pat Northerners continue to develop in advance of the far larger local Southern population.
Overall, I think you're right. What was originally an issue of class and amatuer/professional distinction is probably a more subliminal cultural perspective nowadays. As for tracks, I don't think it's the biggest issue either, although I reckon there are exceptions.

btw I wonder if there's a similar, but reversed, trend for batsmen who have managed to score, say, 4,000 test runs.

These are entirely off the top of my head, so be kind to me, but from those first appearing after WW2, maybe we have
Cowdrey
Graveney
May
Dexter
Barrington
Edrich
Boycott
Amiss
Fletcher
Gooch
Gower
Gatting
Broad
Stewart
Hussain
Atherton
Thorpe
Vaughan
Trescothick


Any errors or omissions?
And why the southern bias?
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Well if there's a pattern for bowlers, it makes sense that there'd be the inverse for the batsmen! :p
 

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
England Players debuting Post-WW2 with over 4000 Test runs (Southern born and raised in red) (overseas born in blue)

ME Trescothick
MP Vaughan
MA Butcher
GP Thorpe

N Hussain
AJ Stewart
MA Atherton
RA Smith
AJ Lamb

MW Gatting
DI Gower

IT Botham
GA Gooch
APE Knott

G Boycott
JH Edrich
ER Dexter
KF Barrington
MC Cowdrey
TW Graveney
PBH May
 

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
Not quite as significant as the fast bowling but there is a definate Southern flavour to the batting.

It is an interesting question as to why? As with the bowling, maybe its a residual cultural hangover from the old Am/Pro days, or possibly more likely the selectors have had streotypes in their heads and liked the idea of a bluff Northerner doing the hard work and having batsmen from fashionable and important counties doing the batting.

There surely is an element of regional bias involved in both areas, just a matter of how much.
 

wpdavid

Hall of Fame Member
Well if there's a pattern for bowlers, it makes sense that there'd be the inverse for the batsmen! :p
Not necessarily - there could be a northern "bias" towards our quicks and a "fairer" mix of batsmen. OK, there isn't, but statistically it didn't have to turn out that way. Depends on the reasons, I suppose.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
England Players debuting Post-WW2 with over 4000 Test runs (Southern born and raised in red) (overseas born in blue)

ME Trescothick
MP Vaughan
MA Butcher
GP Thorpe

N Hussain
AJ Stewart
MA Atherton
RA Smith
AJ Lamb

MW Gatting
DI Gower

IT Botham
GA Gooch
APE Knott

G Boycott
JH Edrich
ER Dexter
KF Barrington
MC Cowdrey
TW Graveney
PBH May
Always forget Edward Dexter was born overseas...
 

wpdavid

Hall of Fame Member
England Players debuting Post-WW2 with over 4000 Test runs (Southern born and raised in red) (overseas born in blue)

ME Trescothick
MP Vaughan
MA Butcher
GP Thorpe

N Hussain
AJ Stewart
MA Atherton
RA Smith
AJ Lamb

MW Gatting
DI Gower

IT Botham
GA Gooch
APE Knott

G Boycott
JH Edrich
ER Dexter
KF Barrington
MC Cowdrey
TW Graveney
PBH May
I know Dexter & Cowdrey were born overseas, but come on ... :laugh:
 

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
I know Dexter & Cowdrey were born overseas, but come on ... :laugh:
Im a firm believer that being born overseas to a family that travels has a big impact in the environment a child is raised in even if their childhood is back home in the UK.

It definately impacts outlook slightly divorces you from local insecurities and makes you feel a little different.
 

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