Astle gets NZ Order of Merit

[Flem274*]

Post it in the one in CC... then I can Saj it next week.

Too late.



EDIT: Isn't the Saj the good rant one? I thought it was the "we don't know what they're talking about either" one lol

 

[marc71178]

The Saj is the completely random outburst with no relevance to what's being discussed at the time.

 

[Smudge]

Astle hasn't retired from all forms of cricket - he just took the rest of this domestic season off.

As for Wiki, he was probably mentioned because he got the ONZM, which is ranked higher than the MNZM. Either way, I'm not sure why many sportsmen get something for just doing their job - although I can understand Lomu getting recognised, and John Kirwan's ONZM was fully deserved for his work with mental health.

 

[Dick Rockett]

Astle hasn't retired from all forms of cricket - he just took the rest of this domestic season off.

As for Wiki, he was probably mentioned because he got the ONZM, which is ranked higher than the MNZM. Either way, I'm not sure why many sportsmen get something for just doing their job - although I can understand Lomu getting recognised, and John Kirwan's ONZM was fully deserved for his work with mental health.

I might be killing the sacred cow here, but I disagree. An outstanding player he most certainly was, but given the incredibly short time he played at his peak on the biggest stage (ie. without his kidney problems holding him back), I hardly think he deserves anything.

Populist awards these, nothing more.

 

[Richard]

The Saj is the completely random outburst with no relevance to what's being discussed at the time.

And the whole idea of the Grinds My Cricketing Gears thread is that you can rant away without there being a discussion at the time.

 

[Richard]

Too late.

No reason you can't repost it.

EDIT: Isn't the Saj the good rant one? I thought it was the "we don't know what they're talking about either" one lol

That's the Inzy.

 

[marc71178]

Apart from a contrived conversation for rants...

Saj is meant to pop up at random in threads (much like the initial Saj comment came from nowhere)

 

[Richard]

Rants usually come out of nowhere, that's the very nature of them. Rarely do people see them coming. And yes, the Cricketing Gears thread was designed to encourage people to rant about stuff if they felt like it.

It's hardly a national shame.

 

[Perm]

I might be killing the sacred cow here, but I disagree. An outstanding player he most certainly was, but given the incredibly short time he played at his peak on the biggest stage (ie. without his kidney problems holding him back), I hardly think he deserves anything.

Populist awards these, nothing more.

Lomu is rugby. Ask an average English fan what player they like the most and chances are it will be Lomu. He has globalised rugby to the extent that he was the only rugby player that my American friend knew of when he first came to NZ at the start of last year. He was an outstanding player, but an even greater spokesman IMO.

 

[Smudge]

I might be killing the sacred cow here, but I disagree. An outstanding player he most certainly was, but given the incredibly short time he played at his peak on the biggest stage (ie. without his kidney problems holding him back), I hardly think he deserves anything.

Populist awards these, nothing more.

His peformances in the 1995 RWC basically turned rugby professional. And if his story isn't inspirational, then I don't know what is.

 

[Dick Rockett]

Lomu is rugby. Ask an average English fan what player they like the most and chances are it will be Lomu. He has globalised rugby to the extent that he was the only rugby player that my American friend knew of when he first came to NZ at the start of last year. He was an outstanding player, but an even greater spokesman IMO.

So basically he should be awarded because he was an amazing marketing tool?

His peformances in the 1995 RWC basically turned rugby professional. And if his story isn't inspirational, then I don't know what is.

Rugby largely turned professional over the threat of being taken over by corporate interests (ie. Rupert Murdoch), and the retention of players, who if they weren't circumventing amateur status by taking payments and favours on the side, were jumping ship for league.

I don't deny that Lomu was an awesome player, but if I don't agree that Nathan Astle should receive a gong for 12 years service to the national side - with countless heroic performances - I certainly don't agree with Lomu receiving one for his "blink and you'll miss it" career, no matter how staggering it was or how much he made the Brits salivate.

 

[Perm]

So basically he should be awarded because he was an amazing marketing tool?

He transformed our national sport into one that was more recognised around the globe. For an American person to know what rugby was about due to Jonah Lomu's incredibly career is staggering IMO, and shows what a legend the big guy was. Add to that his recover from kidney failure and his marketing appeal, then I don't see any reason why he shouldn't be rewarded.

 

[Smudge]

Rugby largely turned professional over the threat of being taken over by corporate interests (ie. Rupert Murdoch)

Rupert Murdoch provided the get-out clause for the national unions. Prior to this, it was an organisation called WRC which threatened to rip rugby apart by setting up an international competition separate from the world's governing body and national unions. It was only when Rupert Murdoch saw footage of Jonah Lomu trampling the English that he was interested in getting involved and providing the financial boost the unions needed to drag the players back. The Rugby War by Peter Fitzsimons is an excellent summary of this.

 

[Dick Rockett]

He transformed our national sport into one that was more recognised around the globe. For an American person to know what rugby was about due to Jonah Lomu's incredibly career is staggering IMO, and shows what a legend the big guy was. Add to that his recover from kidney failure and his marketing appeal, then I don't see any reason why he shouldn't be rewarded.

There are plenty of others who've been inspirational yet received no kind of official recognition, and if Lomu is being recognised for being a marketing tool then that really shows the awards system up as an empty sham. The fact is that Lomu is a popular talisman for a vast majority of the rugby loving public and his award is simply a feelgood bauble designed to distract people from the real issues, at a time when the governing party is taking a hammering in the polls.

Rupert Murdoch provided the get-out clause for the national unions. Prior to this, it was an organisation called WRC which threatened to rip rugby apart by setting up an international competition separate from the world's governing body and national unions. It was only when Rupert Murdoch saw footage of Jonah Lomu trampling the English that he was interested in getting involved and providing the financial boost the unions needed to drag the players back. The Rugby War by Peter Fitzsimons is an excellent summary of this.

You didn't really address the second part of my comment, which was that rugby players were essentially professional in all but official terms, and the switch was a bow to the inevitable. Nothing ever happens overnight and the drift towards professionalism was happening long before Lomu's world cup heroics. He might have hastened the process, but to say he was responsible for it is an exaggeration.

Anyway, I'm going to leave this discussion as it stands - I know that rugby is one of the few subjects you take seriously without exception, so obviously I'm never going to convince you.

 

[Smudge]

You didn't really address the second part of my comment, which was that rugby players were essentially professional in all but official terms, and the switch was a bow to the inevitable. .

Yes, they were almost professional - 'boot money' was a common occurrence in the Northern Hemisphere, while the All Blacks Club was as thinly-veiled as you could get in terms of a way of reimbursing the players.

Nothing ever happens overnight and the drift towards professionalism was happening long before Lomu's world cup heroics. He might have hastened the process, but to say he was responsible for it is an exaggeration.

That's fine - although I never said he hastened the progress, it's more a case of his performances leading directly to the national unions keeping hold of their players. Of course, the way the RFU in England let the players slip from their hands in terms of contracts is a whole different matter altogether. I do think Lomu's exploits did have a major hand in guiding the future of rugby in the right direction, rather than into the hands of Ross Turnbull et al.

Anyway, I'm going to leave this discussion as it stands - I know that rugby is one of the few subjects you take seriously without exception, so obviously I'm never going to convince you

It's not a matter of convincing - we are allowed differing viewpoints, ya know. And I really would recommend The Rugby War to you. One of the best sporting books around - and rugby books are usually as dull as dishwater.

 

[Dick Rockett]

It's not a matter of convincing - we are allowed differing viewpoints, ya know.

Yeah, I know. Obviously I respect you as a poster, but tbh, I don't have the stomach for a hard out discussion on this particular topic. Suffice it to say, I don't think Nathan Astle or Jonah Lomu deserve this kind of honour, and I'll leave it at that.

 

[Smudge]

Obviously I respect you as a poster

What's wrong with you, man?