Something interesting about Englands (relative) test sucess over the past 4 years.

[Bob Bamber]

I was just thinking back to Englands past 4 years in the test , and something struck me a little.

Winter 04 - West Indies , 4-0 (No Spinner of any value).
Begin Summer 04 - New Zealand , 3-0 (Without Vettori)
End Summer 04 - West Indies 4-0 (No Spinner)
Winter 05 - South Africa , 2-1 (Nicky Boje ...)
Begin Summer 05 , Bangladesh , 2-0 (There not that good , so you can't really account Mohammed Rafique for anything).
End Summer 05 , Austrailia , 2-1 (Warne, 40 Wickets , and they still lost...)
Autumn/Winter 05 , Pakistan , 0-2 (Kaneria)
Winter 05/Spring 06 , India , 1-1 (Kumble + Singh)
Begin Summer 06 , Sri Lanka , 1-1 (Murali gets 8 wickets in 1 innings).
End Summer 06 , Pakistan , 2-0 , (Kaneria couldn't get control and pressure without decent seem attack with him , but nevertheless , we still struggled)
Winter 06 - Australia , 5-0 , (Warne )

Whenever England come up against a decent spinner , we struggle. Is that our problem?

[PhoenixFire]

Well it's no secret that traditionally England are much weaker at playing spin, than they are against pace, especially weak against leg-spin.

[steds]

Originally Posted by Bob Bamber

End Summer 04 - West Indies 4-0 (No Spinner)

Dave? ...

[pskov]

Originally Posted by Bob Bamber

I was just thinking back to Englands past 4 years in the test , and something struck me a little.

Winter 04 - West Indies , 4-0 (No Spinner of any value).
Begin Summer 04 - New Zealand , 3-0 (Without Vettori)
End Summer 04 - West Indies 4-0 (No Spinner)
Winter 05 - South Africa , 2-1 (Nicky Boje ...)
Begin Summer 05 , Bangladesh , 2-0 (There not that good , so you can't really account Mohammed Rafique for anything).
End Summer 05 , Austrailia , 2-1 (Warne, 40 Wickets , and they still lost...)
Autumn/Winter 05 , Pakistan , 0-2 (Kaneria)
Winter 05/Spring 06 , India , 1-1 (Kumble + Singh)
Begin Summer 06 , Sri Lanka , 1-1 (Murali gets 8 wickets in 1 innings).
End Summer 06 , Pakistan , 2-0 , (Kaneria couldn't get control and pressure without decent seem attack with him , but nevertheless , we still struggled)
Winter 06 - Australia , 5-0 , (Warne )

Whenever England come up against a decent spinner , we struggle. Is that our problem?

You could have done exactly the same analysis with pace attacks really.

WI 04 - Best, Edwards, Washington etc.
NZ 04 - pre-Bond average attack
SA 05 - Ntini, Pollock and Kallis give England a tough series
Bang 05 - No good pacers
Aus 05 - England won the two tests that McGrath didn't play in
Pak 05 - Shoaib in great form, Shabbir and Naved excellent back up
India 06 - RP Singh and Patel come to the fore for India
SL 06 - Vaas and Malinga and Fernando
Pak 06 - poor attack with only Gul decent
Aus 06 - McGrath, Lee and Clark

So basically the lesson is that England win easily against poor attacks and lose or have a tough time against good ones. Not exactly genius is it?

[steds]

Originally Posted by pskov

SA 05 - Ntini, Pollock and Kallis give England a tough series

The Kallis who took 4 wickets in the series?

[Prince EWS]

Originally Posted by steds

The Kallis who took 4 wickets in the series?

Nah, a different one.

[steds]

Ahh. Fair enough. Suppose he's got a point, then.

[open365]

Well they wouldn't be a decent spinner if they didn't give batsmen trouble would they.

Warne and Murali are two greats of the game, no shame in having trouble with them, and even then, i thought we played Warne quite well in parts of the 05 ashes series even though he got 40 wickets.

[Bob Bamber]

Originally Posted by steds

Dave? ...

Don't think Dave Mohammad can be called a good spinner. I know i said no spinner. He only played 2 of those 4 tests didn't he?

Originally Posted by open365

Well they wouldn't be a decent spinner if they didn't give batsmen trouble would they.

Warne and Murali are two greats of the game, no shame in having trouble with them, and even then, i thought we played Warne quite well in parts of the 05 ashes series even though he got 40 wickets.

But England play well against teams who don't have a good spinner is what Im saying.

[Perm]

Originally Posted by open365

Warne and Murali are two greats of the game, no shame in having trouble with them, and even then, i thought we played Warne quite well in parts of the 05 ashes series even though he got 40 wickets.

Warne was monumental in that series and bowled brilliantly. But the amount of wickets he got were indicative of how weak Australia's pace bowlers were in that series, McGrath excluded.

[Perm]

Originally Posted by Bob Bamber

Don't think Dave Mohammad can be called a good spinner. I know i said no spinner. He only played 2 of those 4 tests didn't he?

But England play well against teams who don't have a good spinner is what Im saying.

Exactly, because there is no good spinner bowling against them to restrict the runs and take wickets which is traditionally what good spinners do.

[simmy]

This is such a stupid thread. They can only beat the side put in front of them.

[steds]

Originally Posted by Bob Bamber

Don't think Dave Mohammad can be called a good spinner.

1. It's Mohammed
2.

Originally Posted by Bob Bamber

He only played 2 of those 4 tests didn't he?

Just at OT actually.

[silentstriker]

Just want to say, if England have had 'relative' success, then Australia must be pretty much the only country with actual success. That's a harsh scale.

[Bob Bamber]

I didn't see people being as picky as this.

Anyway more to the point. I was making the observation , that Englands main failings are because of good spin attacks. Rather than anything else. A case in point the Ashes. McGrath after Lords , was never fully fit. Lee was a bit expensive , and found himself on the end of the good batting , and the faffing about with the third bowler is fairly self explanatory. Warne however , probably kept that series from what could have been quite a comfortable win for England. 100 wickets to take , minus the declariations and that England only batted once at The Oval. So that leaves about 80 odd wickets (Im sure someone will correct me on that). And Warne to half of them .

I agree with the fact that Warne and Murali are excellant bowlers , the very best. But when was the last time England struggeld against a pace attack. Compared to the amount of times spinners have undone them. This world Cup , vs Bangladesh , their three Slow Leftees , took us apart.

One thing for Peter Moores to improve I think.