Major England ODI Overhaul Needed

[ozone]

Gough didn't deserve to be at the WC at all, he was returning pretty awful figures for England when and before he got injured.

I agree with Rich, it's not about focusing on the future, we need to adress these problems our team faces now with an eye to the next game, not in four years time.

Clive Woodward, one of the best coaches in the world, said all he concentrated and planned for during his reign was the next game, there was no "Oh he's a bit young but he'll get experience" sentiments from Clive, he was about winning, winning the next game you play in, winning every game you play in.

That is the attitude that wins world cups and makes your team the best in the world.

The problem that we have is that in order to improve, it is going to be essential to drop our 'experienced' players and give new players a shot rather than using the same players.

Also, I was only giving Gough as the option that England had if they wanted experience. I wasn't saying he should be there but he was the option.

 

[open365]

Gough > Mahmood

Gough's figures

season 2005            9   73.3   416  10  3/70   2/33   41.60  5.65  44.1  0  0
season 2006            2   12      72   0   -      -       -    6.00    -   0  0

Gough was A) Bowling terribly and getting smacked and B) Just coming back from a re-occurence of a persistent knee injury.

And i would have Lewis over Mahmood anyway, maybe/probably even Plunket as well.

 

[gunner]

in these west indian pitches lewis would have been spanked straight to gloucestershire

 

[Prince EWS]

in these west indian pitches lewis would have been spanked straight to gloucestershire

And Mahmood wasn't?

Lewis is a good one day bowler. Regardless of the pitch conditions or anything else, he's a better one day bowler than Mahmood.

 

[Richard]

Shah's has more than enough chances, just like Hoggard had more than enough chances and failed with them all.

Continuosly picked players that have failed many times before just because they're scoring runs in domestic cricket is a massive step in the wrong direction, new players need to be given a shot otherwise we're stuck in a continous cycle of chopping and changing the same not good enough players.

Add Solanki, Kabir Ali, McGrath, Clarke, Batty, Kirtley and Blackwell to those 2, and from the earlier days Irani, Cork and Alastair Brown.

Greatest shame is, any number of those could have achieved so much in the Test arena and none did. Some were never given so much as a single opportunity, either.

 

[Richard]

gearing up for another richard vs tec?

Possibly, but only if he's around - which, of late, he hasn't been too much.

 

[Richard]

Gough didn't deserve to be at the WC at all, he was returning pretty awful figures for England when and before he got injured.

But he was still doing less wrong than the Kabir Alis, Plunketts and Mahmoods, and how the Bresnans, Yardys and Loudons EVER got picked ahead of him (and both the latter two, despite being principally batsmen, were picked more as bowlers) beggars belief.

I also can't help but feel that had Gough not got injured when he did, he'd have made some improvement as Pakistan went downhill.

I agree with Rich, it's not about focusing on the future, we need to adress these problems our team faces now with an eye to the next game, not in four years time.

Clive Woodward, one of the best coaches in the world, said all he concentrated and planned for during his reign was the next game, there was no "Oh he's a bit young but he'll get experience" sentiments from Clive, he was about winning, winning the next game you play in, winning every game you play in.

That is the attitude that wins world cups and makes your team the best in the world.

Rugby is akin to Test, not ODI, cricket.

 

[Richard]

Benning maybe though i don't see him having much sucess, Benham shouldn't even be considered for full England duty for another year or too, he's a great prospect and is already performing pretty well to put it mildy on the domestic one day circuit but his technique and temprement wouldn't bring success at ODI level right now and could set him back a few years.

We should just wait for him to mature a bit and get some experience under his belt.

I cringe at the thought of Christopher Benham ever playing for England.

James Benning, on the other hand, is certainly worth a go - and if Loye were 3 or even 2 years younger, he'd be worth another one.

 

[Richard]

in these west indian pitches lewis would have been spanked straight to gloucestershire

These West Indian pitches which have of times offered encouragement to bowlers who put the ball in the right place?

Lewis doesn't always do that, but he does it a damn sight more than even the less hopeless England seamers like Anderson.

 

[prakesh]

Kabir Ali, Clarke, Batty, Blackwell Irani,

Greatest shame is, any number of those could have achieved so much in the Test arena and none did. Some were never given so much as a single opportunity, either.

 

[Richard]

Of course, being English there was never any chance of them doing anything, was there?

Why has this account not been banned yet?

 

[marc71178]

owais shah really needs to be given a chance
he made 88 in his only test match was simply dropped
now that fletcher will go hopefully we will see selections on merit and not just by being in a group

So who does he deserve to be ahead of in the England middle order then?

 

[prakesh]

Of course, being English there was never any chance of them doing anything, was there?

Fool, if you notice I left out about half of the names you listed...and they also happen to be of the same nationality, although slightly less hopeless.

 

[Richard]

Fool yourself, for (deliberately, presumably) missing the "any number of" part, which showed quite clearly I did not mean all.

 

[tooextracool]

They aren't at all mutually exclusive though, especially against good bowling.

no they arent, but virtually no player has ever made a career by hitting just 4s and 6s and succeeded in international cricket. you have to keep the strike turning over in ODI cricket not just for yourself, but also so that your partner at the crease isnt frustrated, not to mention that bowlers hate bowling at 2 different batsmen every delivery

 

[tooextracool]

The thing is though, England don't actually such a problem with middle order players. Pietersen and Collingwood pretty much have #4 and #5 tied up, and even the likes of Dalrymple and Bopara have been shown quite useful in batting in the lower middle order (Dalrymple has been dire when batting lower than 6 though). England's problem stems at the top of the order - the top three are dire, basically. Joyce was tried there to fix that problem - it didn't really work. 1-3 and 7-8 are the problem areas basically, and it just so happens that Joyce, unluckily, seems to be best suited to batting 4-6 - likewise with Dalrymple and Bopara.

Yeah and i'd like to see someone like Flintoff sent up the order. I've always been a big fan of that because hes not good enough to come in during the middle overs and work spinners around for singles and twos. England's coach and selectors should surely know that by now.

I would try experimenting with him at he very top of the order against the hard new ball because i think given time and persistence he would be more likely to succeed and do a very good job of it. Trescothick and Flintoff opening the batting in form is surely something that not bowlers would like to come up against.

Fletcher's reluctance this world cup to try anything different or creative are the precise reason why hes not fit to be England coach anymore. And the fact that Jon Lewis, who is still Englands best fast bowler after Flintoff, didnt get a single game while he was around is further proof of it.

 

[tooextracool]

I wonder what you were watching.

Hall was consistently hitting the mid-130s and occasionally even the 140s. Not to mention the fact that he was bowling massive great inswingers at one point.

And you accuse me of failing to give credit to Vettori at The WACA in 2001\02... that was as good a spell of bowling as you could wish to see in a ODI. And good wicketkeeping to stand-up to bowlers bowling at that pace too.

The ball that got Flintoff was clocked at 83 mph. Not bad at all, but honestly you have to be kidding yourself if you think it was acceptable to miss a ball like that by half a foot. I dont have anything againt Hall, but looking at some of Flintoff's dismissals this world cup- trying to hit a Fernando slower ball over the top, failing to pick Brad Hogg for the umpteenth time in his career (seriously you'd think by now he would do have learnt something about that), missing a mohammad rafique arm ball by another half mile- is simply not good enough for any FC cricketer, let alone one of the standing of Flintoff. Whether or not he takes his batting at all seriously, i dont know, but not being able to pick Mohammad Rafique is a crime of the first order.

 

[tooextracool]

Whoever doesn't perform in the middle order, in Tests. I'd hazard a guess at Collingwood or Bell if they don't perform and make 100s often enough. Sounds harsh, but I'd say they were fine at the minute. If not, at least give him a go in ODIs.

So you'd drop 2 out 3 of your most consistent batsmen in recent times. Are you duncan Fletcher in disguise?

 

[tooextracool]

in these west indian pitches lewis would have been spanked straight to gloucestershire

because so many of these games have resulted in 300+ scores havent they? At times theres been plenty of swing on offer for many of the bowlers this world cup and at least with Lewis we could have had one bowler who knows how to bowl line and length.

 

[open365]

But he was still doing less wrong than the Kabir Alis, Plunketts and Mahmoods, and how the Bresnans, Yardys and Loudons EVER got picked ahead of him (and both the latter two, despite being principally batsmen, were picked more as bowlers) beggars belief.

I also can't help but feel that had Gough not got injured when he did, he'd have made some improvement as Pakistan went downhill.

Rugby is akin to Test, not ODI, cricket.

Mahmood got spanked in the Sri Lanka series but in the Pakistan one where Gough got injured he wasn't that bad.

Add that to Gough's injury and his pretty dire form at the time, Mahmood was the better pick.

Gough's bowling went long ago, he could still do a job but he lost his pace and his spark and was going downhill, picking a player in that situation when coming back from an injury and hence having not played any proper cricket for ages isn't the right move.