Major England ODI Overhaul Needed

[Richard]

I actually don't think Joyce scores that slowly - he just isn't very good. When he's actually scoring runs, he looks in reasonable crontrol and scores at a fair rate. Failing that, he gets out.

When you're a 28-year-old mostly batting in a position that's been totally alien to you all your life, it's hardly surprising.

 

[Richard]

He does it a little bit. So does Cook - he kept in a game or two for whichever county team he plays for, last season. They'd be in the Dravid mould though I'm guessing, and the last thing England need at the moment is another problem - a keeper who can't keep.

I have a feeling England will try to kill two birds with one stone and open the batting with Matt Prior, much to Richard's disgust I'm sure!

Wouldn't rule it out, and TBH there are worse options these days.

I genuinely hope we might go back to Read in ODIs. There is honestly no better option.

 

[MoxPearl]

i think english sport in general needs a overhaull

English Population 50,000,000
Australia Population 20,000,000
New Zealand Population 4,000,000

Rugby and Cricket... both dire

 

[KiWiNiNjA]

i think english sport in general needs a overhaull

English Population 50,000,000
Australia Population 20,000,000
New Zealand Population 4,000,000

Rugby and Cricket... both dire

Wow, what are the chances of that happening????

 

[tooextracool]

I have not once said that Joyce, Bell, Strauss and Vaughan should be playing! You cannot treat the two forms separately either as everything should be working towards making the Test side the best in the world.

I am trying to say that at the moment, England are using their Test team in ODIs and it isn't working. They are currently just getting their Test batsmen out of form.

IMO, Vaughan should play because he is the Test captain and having different captains for Test and ODIs is often counter-productive. Strauss shouldn't be in the ODI side (except as a replacement for Vaughans next injury) and I am still undecided on Bell, but if he plays he should not open with Vaughan. England should bring in an opener who will take advantage of the powerplays. Period.

Honestly all this talk about Vaughan should play has been going around for god knows how long in both forms of the game. Vaughan is a perfectly good captain, the best in both forms of cricket ATM, but hes simply not been good enough as a player in either form of the game for almost half a decade. Isolated instances arent going to change anything. Equally, it was a foolish move to have him play in ODI cricket when he hasnt played got a game under his belt for a year. Its not about hitting the ball well in the nets, its about scoring runs in domestic cricket and proving yourself before you play in international cricket.

It all boils down to Duncan Fletcher's policy of wrapping his first XI players in cotton wool so that they barely play any first class cricket along with the 'form is temporary, class is permanent' nonsense that has been going around in cricket for 125 years. No one deserves a free ride in any form of the game based on what they've done for England ages ago, Flintoff included. Flintoff's dismissals with the bat all tournament have been nothing short of a disgrace and even a club cricketer would be ashamed of them. His dismissal today where he missed the ball by half a foot against a bowler who bowls nothing more than military medium was only one such instance. Flintoff hasnt had a half decent game with the bat since his injury and the fact is that rather than picking players this summer based on past accomplishments it might be wiser to pick them based on how they play in county cricket. Then again, if the Fletcher-graveney regime continues, Simon Jones will end up starting against the WI after having one half decent county performance, only for him to get dropped at the end of the series for not bowling well enough.

 

[tooextracool]

What I am trying to say is, surely there are many more players who score quicker than Strauss, Joyce, Bell and Vaughan. England have quite a large pool of players dont they? Defo more than NZ by far

Its not about who scores quicker, its about the number of dot balls. ODI cricket has always been less about the number of 4s and 6s and more about how many dots you have in an inning. Because no matter how many runs you have and how balls you've faced, dots build pressure and pressure leads to dismissals.

ATM Vaughan, Strauss and Bell simply dont know how to play ODI cricket. They come in, scratch around and expect to miraculously start batting brilliantly after scratching around for an hour only to lose their wickets and screw things up for Pietersen and Collingwood thereafter. At least with Bell, there is some potential, the other 2 are simply rubbish.

 

[tooextracool]

I occasionally wonder whether England might actually be the one side in the world who would benefit from something approaching that. Obviously most other countries' oneday sides are hugely dominated by test players but England have been so ****e at these games for so long now that you wonder if something radical is needed. If nothing else, having 11 players who really want to be there would help.

I think the first thing that needs to be done is to get rid of Graveney and co, who has never been fit to lead the team of selectors at any point in time during his tenure. And surely, and thankfully, now Fletcher will be sacked.

 

[tooextracool]

Trescothick
Bell
KP
Strauss
Flintoff
Collingwood
Bopara
Nixon
Broad
Panesar
Anderson

I would guess that will be what we will go with if Tresco gets his form/mind rite

Panesar? You are joking surely? Panesar has been hammered by everyone of the test sides this tournament. He simple doesnt use flight well enough in his bowling, and his inability to bowl an arm ball effectively make him useless in ODIs both as an attacking and defensive option. Id much rather have Giles back in the ODI side, who could at least use flight well and was a decent bat, than have to watch Panesar provide absolutely nothing to this England side. Yes he might learn and get better, but hes better off doing that in List A cricket.

Similarly, Strauss and Broad would be better served in domestic cricket while Flintoff should be encouraged to spend as much time playing FC and list A cricket before he plays this summer.

 

[tooextracool]

What happened to Loye? Did he just not do much?

He didnt have any other strokes other than the sweep and his technique was extremely ordinary. Of course he was still a better option than the rest of the top order but he was definetly not going to have any level of international success.

 

[tooextracool]

I actually don't think Joyce scores that slowly - he just isn't very good. When he's actually scoring runs, he looks in reasonable crontrol and scores at a fair rate. Failing that, he gets out.

Joyce has enough technical weaknesses for him to not be considered for test match cricket. In ODIs i think he might yet be a decent player if he was batting down the order.

 

[Prince EWS]

Its not about who scores quicker, its about the number of dot balls.

They aren't at all mutually exclusive though, especially against good bowling.

ODI cricket has always been less about the number of 4s and 6s and more about how many dots you have in an inning. Because no matter how many runs you have and how balls you've faced, dots build pressure and pressure leads to dismissals.

ATM Vaughan, Strauss and Bell simply dont know how to play ODI cricket. They come in, scratch around and expect to miraculously start batting brilliantly after scratching around for an hour only to lose their wickets and screw things up for Pietersen and Collingwood thereafter. At least with Bell, there is some potential, the other 2 are simply rubbish.

Agree with that, 100%. I posted something extremely similar about two weeks ago IIRC.

 

[Prince EWS]

Joyce has enough technical weaknesses for him to not be considered for test match cricket. In ODIs i think he might yet be a decent player if he was batting down the order.

The thing is though, England don't actually such a problem with middle order players. Pietersen and Collingwood pretty much have #4 and #5 tied up, and even the likes of Dalrymple and Bopara have been shown quite useful in batting in the lower middle order (Dalrymple has been dire when batting lower than 6 though). England's problem stems at the top of the order - the top three are dire, basically. Joyce was tried there to fix that problem - it didn't really work. 1-3 and 7-8 are the problem areas basically, and it just so happens that Joyce, unluckily, seems to be best suited to batting 4-6 - likewise with Dalrymple and Bopara.

 

[Langeveldt]

i think english sport in general needs a overhaull

English Population 50,000,000
Australia Population 20,000,000
New Zealand Population 4,000,000

Rugby and Cricket... both dire

More like 60 million now in the UK

 

[TT Boy]

Jonathan Trott for either Bell, Vaughan or Strauss and look to include Chris Benham and James Benning in the England set up. Even if all three prove to be useless (more than a good chance) they are the sort of cricketers one would want or prefer in the one day international arena.

 

[Richard]

Flintoff's dismissals with the bat all tournament have been nothing short of a disgrace and even a club cricketer would be ashamed of them. His dismissal today where he missed the ball by half a foot against a bowler who bowls nothing more than military medium was only one such instance.

I wonder what you were watching.

Hall was consistently hitting the mid-130s and occasionally even the 140s. Not to mention the fact that he was bowling massive great inswingers at one point.

And you accuse me of failing to give credit to Vettori at The WACA in 2001\02... that was as good a spell of bowling as you could wish to see in a ODI. And good wicketkeeping to stand-up to bowlers bowling at that pace too.

 

[Perm]

Jonathan Trott for either Bell, Vaughan or Strauss and look to include Chris Benham and James Benning in the England set up. Even if all three prove to be useless (more than a good chance) they are the sort of cricketers one would want or prefer in the one day international arena.

Trott is the man, he averaged about 45 a couple of years ago for Otago in the State Shield. Showed quality on some tough New Zealand pitches.

 

[open365]

Jonathan Trott for either Bell, Vaughan or Strauss and look to include Chris Benham and James Benning in the England set up. Even if all three prove to be useless (more than a good chance) they are the sort of cricketers one would want or prefer in the one day international arena.

Benning maybe though i don't see him having much sucess, Benham shouldn't even be considered for full England duty for another year or too, he's a great prospect and is already performing pretty well to put it mildy on the domestic one day circuit but his technique and temprement wouldn't bring success at ODI level right now and could set him back a few years.

We should just wait for him to mature a bit and get some experience under his belt.

 

[PhoenixFire]

More like 60 million now in the UK

He's talking about England specifically.

 

[open365]

Trott is the man, he averaged about 45 a couple of years ago for Otago in the State Shield. Showed quality on some tough New Zealand pitches.

http://content-uk.cricinfo.com/southafrica/content/player/47623.html

Awesome record, but is he English qualified?

 

[TT Boy]

http://content-uk.cricinfo.com/southafrica/content/player/47623.html

Awesome record, but is he English qualified?

I believe so.