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Pietersen playing for South Africa?

B

Bracken

U19 Debutant
Richard said:
No. Late-40s, yes, but not mid-50s. Had Pietersen been returning those numbers in any country, he'd have been in the side soon as a place became available (and even in Australia that happens often enough).
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No- there were a few that had FC averages comparable to Pietersen that didn't get much of a chance because of the settled nature of the test line up.

Stuart Law and Martin Love both come to mind, and neither of them failed when they did manage to get in, but couldn't hold their places. You could add Darren Lehmann to that list, too- he waited years for a (limited, as it turned out) chance, while averaging 55+.

Jaques is current example. He averages five more than Pietersen, and is no certainty to get the nod following Langer's retirement. If he does get the spot, then another guy with a 50+ FC average in Rogers will miss out.

Having a 50+ (which is what Pietersen has, not mid fifties) FC average hasn't guaranteed a test spot over the past decade or so.
 
Richard

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Bracken said:
No- there were a few that had FC averages comparable to Pietersen that didn't get much of a chance because of the settled nature of the test line up.

Stuart Law and Martin Love both come to mind, and neither of them failed when they did manage to get in, but couldn't hold their places. You could add Darren Lehmann to that list, too- he waited years for a (limited, as it turned out) chance, while averaging 55+.

Jaques is current example. He averages five more than Pietersen, and is no certainty to get the nod following Langer's retirement. If he does get the spot, then another guy with a 50+ FC average in Rogers will miss out.

Having a 50+ (which is what Pietersen has, not mid fifties) FC average hasn't guaranteed a test spot over the past decade or so.
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Lehmann is the only one with an average in the 50s to miss-out on a decent Test career. Jacques is pretty likely to, and Rogers has only attained such an average very recenty.

Law and Love averaged only in the late 40s, not the 50s, in their Australian First-Class careers.
 
Goughy

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
Richard said:
So many people don't know that, when he left, he was more of a bowler than a batsman.
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I thought everyone knew that. What they may not know is that he was a batsman that was only ever picked as a bowler and grew frustrated with it.
 
Richard

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Goughy said:
I thought everyone knew that.
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I've seen plenty of suggestions that only those who've studied his entire career rather than just the last 3 years or so haven't a clue of it.
What they may not know is that he was a batsman that was only ever picked as a bowler and grew frustrated with it.
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I've seen several examples of such a thing. Mostly, the batsmen concerned have tended to simply score some runs and force people to view them as they want to be viewed. Pietersen didn't - he changed teams.
 
Goughy

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
Richard said:
I've seen plenty of suggestions that only those who've studied his entire career rather than just the last 3 years or so haven't a clue of it.

I've seen several examples of such a thing. Mostly, the batsmen concerned have tended to simply score some runs and force people to view them as they want to be viewed. Pietersen didn't - he changed teams.
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Firstly I know a number of guys that played with and against him in Junior Rep and at Provincial level. They all said he was a talented batsman (though they wouldnt have guessed how good) and that his bowling was pretty poor

Secondly, you have to understand how important this game was.
http://www.pcboard.com.pk/Archive/Scorecards/68/68811.html

After that he was told to stop pretending to be a batsman and concentrate on his off-spin. He was told that no matter how good he was he would not bat up the order. Batting KP at 9 was a joke that got old very quickly and he tired of it. The guys in Natal had no idea what they were doing. He was a batsman but there was no place for him as one so he was forced to play as an off-spinner. Noone considered him a bowler that could bat a little despite him being played as such.

There have been many indications (not least Clive Rice offering a contract virtually sight unseen as a batsman) that he was highly regarded as a batsman.
 
Richard

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Not that that's not interesting but... so what? I've already said that the Natal management were stupid if they were playing Pietersen as a bowler when all previous evidence suggested he was a batsman.

What I'm saying is that, had he not had the option of moving to England, it's pretty likely that he'd either have gone somewhere else in South Africa or eventually managed to make those cretins who regarded him as a bowler see the light.
 
Goughy

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
Richard said:
What I'm saying is that, had he not had the option of moving to England, it's pretty likely that he'd either have gone somewhere else in South Africa or eventually managed to make those cretins who regarded him as a bowler see the light.
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Nah, its very unlikely. He would have been lost in the system, would have stopped playing and be doing something in business. There is no way he would have continued in SA.

Its a pretty common thing really. The loss of KP wouldnt have been rare or unique.

Not just quotas but also culture
 
wpdavid

wpdavid

Hall of Fame Member
Goughy said:
Nah, its very unlikely. He would have been lost in the system, would have stopped playing and be doing something in business. There is no way he would have continued in SA.

Its a pretty common thing really. The loss of KP wouldnt have been rare or unique.

Not just quotas but also culture
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Interesting last sentence - I'm interested what you meant by "but also culture".
 
Goughy

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
wpdavid said:
Interesting last sentence - I'm interested what you meant by "but also culture".
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Top level club cricket is dominated by young players. Virtually noone plays after the age of 25 unless they a 'made' player.

Its just the culture that the young guys try and make it (playing top quality club cricket and Province 'B' games) and when they realise they are either not good enough or not going to get the opportunities then they stop playing. Simple as that and something I struggle to understand.

Few (if any) continue playing once they reach a certain age and do not have a place cemented at a franchise.

They drift into business etc and have to work for a living and probably need to work Saturdays.

The club I played for (one of the best in SA and multiple times national champions) was full of FC players and promising youngsters. The club ran 4 teams and at 28 I was the oldest club member. :-O

Most of the guys ranged from 18-22.

Now that is what would have happened to KP. If he was considered a marginal talent (quotas or no quotas) he would have played a few FC games and disappeared from cricket.

Its amazing the guys you speak to and it turns out the were FC cricketers. :blink: They quit all aspects of the game in their early 20's and move onto the business of surviving.

Another issue is potential burn-out. Guys stop playing because they have had enough. Its high pressure cricket from 11 yrs old here and as soon as it becomes clear they are not going to get a full-time Franchise contract they quit and have better things to do.

I hope that makes sense. The quota issue is a different one and just makes more of these players disappear from the game as they are denied opportunities. However, it murkys (sp?) the water rather than changes the culture.
 
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