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Me on leg-spin

chris.hinton

International Captain
As some of you are aware i am a Big leg-spin fan and i would love to see a World-class Legspinner in the England Squad

I will tell you why we should have one and why the coaches are killing them and are laughing in Jenner Face

In August every year they are 20 leg spinners who are Selected by Terry jenner one of them is my brother. They have a 3 day training course and are tested to the Limit whilst Learn more Tequines about Leg-spin, Jenner then picks 3 players to go to Australia,


3 counties are described as a "Dead County" as far as leg spin is. But they Kid was selected to go to Australia becasue of his sheer Ability but the Kid in Question is 20 and has been Released by one of the counties in question

He had taken 7/89 in a Second Xi match off 24 overs but becasue he cost about 4 runs an over he was DROPPED, they told him that becasue he consided 4 runs a over he did not do his job, not by the fact that he had taken 7 wickets

Coaches in this Country tell leg-spinners that you must Contain and be Defensive, leave the attacking to the fast bowlers

Ask yourself this what would you perfer to have

7-0-25-5
7-3-14-1

I would have 5 wickets all the time that half the team gone, battle half won. I think you would know what warne would have as well

Jenner is laughed at by Coaches telling him that he cannot coach and calling him al the names under the sun, but jenner is one of the saviour of English cricket is Counties are willing to listen and learn we could then have a world-class leg spinner produce

Marc71128 (Whatever) was saying that "we do not need a Leggie because of Conditions" well the Condcould change Warne gets loads of Wickets over here as do other leg-spinner in Club Cricket but Pitches could change to suit both Fast and Spin.

In 2007 E.C.B the rumour as it are willing to Central Contract 2 leggies even though they are playing Club Cricket. E.C.B want it so why not the Counties?

What i have seen at Jenner Acadamy are that 5-6 people have what it takes and out of 20 that is a good rate

Jenner says "Spin is in the Air not on the ground" and that is right, And the English Coaches will not Listen to him and that does show what English Cricket is all about , Crap and Egostatic English Coaches

Please ask some Questions?
 

Gotchya

State Vice-Captain
I do agree that English players dont play spin in general very well, but set aside leg spinners, quality seamers are a rarity in England now (unfortunately). And I dont think that finger spin (which is the most rewarding) can DEVELOP in England. Sure it would be great if a good leg spinner makes his way to the top but it seems unlikely.


Marc71128 (Whatever)
:lol:

That wold make him....:ticking:....74 years old :yawn: :yawn: :lol:
 

chris.hinton

International Captain
Originally posted by Gotchya
I do agree that English players dont play spin in general very well, but set aside leg spinners, quality seamers are a rarity in England now (unfortunately). And I dont think that finger spin (which is the most rewarding) can DEVELOP in England. Sure it would be great if a good leg spinner makes his way to the top but it seems unlikely.


Marc71128 (Whatever)
:lol:

That wold make him....:ticking:....74 years old :yawn: :yawn: :lol:
The talent is there but it the coaches
 

chris.hinton

International Captain
Originally posted by Gotchya
Jenner says "Spin is in the Air not on the ground"
???? But that spinning bowl is supposed to land on the ground right ? how is that an arguement ?
sorry about that, what i mean is that giving it Filght and not Flat Boring Leg spin/off spin
 

Rik

Cricketer Of The Year
Originally posted by Gotchya
I do agree that English players dont play spin in general very well, but set aside leg spinners, quality seamers are a rarity in England now (unfortunately). And I dont think that finger spin (which is the most rewarding) can DEVELOP in England. Sure it would be great if a good leg spinner makes his way to the top but it seems unlikely.


Marc71128 (Whatever)
:lol:

That wold make him....:ticking:....74 years old :yawn: :yawn: :lol:
Well I don't think its a lack of seamers, we have Martin Saggers, James Kirtley, Martin Bicknell, Kevin Dean, Kabir Ali, Paul Franks, etc. But the selectors never pick them...
 

Gotchya

State Vice-Captain
sorry about that, what i mean is that giving it Filght and not Flat Boring Leg spin/off spin
What you are intimating is that attacking spin is not encouraged. Spinners are usually used to tie in batsman and get in some quick overs. (and BTW mate you dont have to be sorry for what you say :) its your own opinion and you can back it up)


As far as spinners go, the conditions in England (for the majority of the time) are soggy and wet. Consequently the pitches are not bouncy and dotn have a lot of life. They do seam around a lot though. These are not the conditions which an average leg spinner will enjoy. Maybe thats what forces them into a defensive mode of bowling ?
 

chris.hinton

International Captain
Originally posted by Gotchya
sorry about that, what i mean is that giving it Filght and not Flat Boring Leg spin/off spin
What you are intimating is that attacking spin is not encouraged. Spinners are usually used to tie in batsman and get in some quick overs. (and BTW mat


e you dont have to be sorry for what you say :) its your own opinion and you can back it up)


As far as spinners go, the conditions in England (for the majority of the time) are soggy and wet. Consequently the pitches are not bouncy and dotn have a lot of life. They do seam around a lot though. These are not the conditions which an average leg spinner will enjoy. Maybe thats what forces them into a defensive mode of bowling ?

Spinner should take Wickets not Contain
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Well I don't think its a lack of seamers, we have Martin Saggers, James Kirtley, Martin Bicknell, Kevin Dean, Kabir Ali, Paul Franks, etc. But the selectors never pick them...
He said quality seamers, but back to leg spin, thanks for letting us know why you think we should play a leg-spinner Chris, I still don't agree that we should at the moment because there just isn't one good enough, but if there were one good enough, he'd have to be an option...
 

Rik

Cricketer Of The Year
Originally posted by marc71178
Well I don't think its a lack of seamers, we have Martin Saggers, James Kirtley, Martin Bicknell, Kevin Dean, Kabir Ali, Paul Franks, etc. But the selectors never pick them...
He said quality seamers, but back to leg spin
In case you forgot they are all quality seamers...
 

Bazza

International 12th Man
Martin Saggers - decent track record but I guess he was never gonna get picked while playing for Durham. He moved to Kent but is now 30 so if you're gonna try someone new he is too old.

James Kirtley - Always performed well in county cricket. Never saw much of him until he got into the England side last year. Looks good but is 27 already. Has played 7 ODIs but a suspect action didn't help and he hasn't done much in his 7 games to date.

Martin Bicknell - Possibly the most consistent performer in county circket. Always does the business. I have felt for years he should have been playing for England but at nearly 34 his chance has gone. As I understand it he failed to impress for England (unable to reproduce form and swing? Ala Dominic Cork of latter years I guess).When you consider he took 13 wickets in 7 ODIs at 26 that's not bad for a then sprightly 21/22 year old. Shame because he would have made an ideal first/second change bowler and #8 batsman for me.

Kevin Dean - Again good stats but is now 27 and is unlikely to gain international representation. I guess he was just too far back in the queue at the time.

Kabir Ali - a future England bowler for me. Looked good this summer. At 22 has time on his side and certainly should get a chance in ODIs within the next year or so assuming he maintains his recent form and works hard (especially at the academy where he could get a chance to impress).

Paul Franks - Hard to believe he's still only 23. Could get more chances as a result, bu for me lost his way after an impressive start as so many youngsters do. Consistency is the name of this game and he maybe needs to show a bit more. Could be a useful first change bowler and no 8 bat in ODIs but we'll see.
 

Rik

Cricketer Of The Year
Originally posted by marc71178
In case you forgot they are all quality seamers...
What planet are you on? They're all good county pros - nothing more.
But hardly ever have had the chance. How could you say Hoggard is better than them? Or Caddick? They all are similer. Caddick just doesn't have the temprement to be a Test bowler. Also why do I even bother trying? Every time even if I'm right or not you just disagree...:rolleyes:
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Cddick has over 200 Test wickets, Hoggard reached 50 wickets quicker than any other current England bowler.

County averages basically mean nothing at Test level, and to be honest, none of that list of players deserve to be out in Australia with the full side at the moment.
 

The Argonaut

State Vice-Captain
Back to the issue at hand.

Surely you can't be suggesting that English coaches aren't progressive thinkers:):):).

I agree with you Chris that leg spin bowling must be encouraged. The talent that exists must be fostered so that test quality bowlers can be produced.

The argument that pitches are to blame is flawed as Warne and MacGill seem to get plenty of wickets over there. Admittedly they are world class bowlers but the pitches seem to generate results for them.

The English love their finger spinners so the mentality will never change and the game is more boring because of it.

Let's hope that Jenner is persistent and break throughs are made in the English game. They will be stronger for it.
 

Rik

Cricketer Of The Year
Originally posted by marc71178
Cddick has over 200 Test wickets, Hoggard reached 50 wickets quicker than any other current England bowler.

County averages basically mean nothing at Test level, and to be honest, none of that list of players deserve to be out in Australia with the full side at the moment.
Caddick has 200 Test Wickets at an average of 30, Hoggard has allways averaged around 30 and is now averaging 35. Now lets see the FC averages of 3 current or recent England Bowlers:

Hoggard FC Average: 26.13
Caddick FC Average: 24.87
Cork FC Average: 26.14

Now compared with the best 3 county players

Dean FC Average: 22.94
Saggers FC Average: 22.41
Kirtley FC Average: 24.90

Now if we are not going to reward players who have done well then who are we going to replace Caddick with when he retires? Also if FC averages mean nothing then how come there are lots of bowlers with better FC averages than the Test Bowlers? Surely the emphisis must be on who would take the wickets cheaper rather than who seems to be "the right type." The only reason why none of these (deserving) players would be picked is because the Selectors are more concerned with "Character" rather than "Ability." If a bowler is taking wickets at under or just over 20 runs a piece then he must be doing something right! If I was faced with picking a bowler who took 50 wickets at 26 or one who had taken 80 at 21 then I know who I would pick...
 

Top_Cat

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Hey, Warnie has a FC average of around 34 and a Test average of 25. There are leg-spinners in Pura Cup cricket with better averages than Warnie but who's obviously the better bowler?? :D

Anyway, as far as seamers go, what ever happened to Ormond? IN my ICC 2002 computer game he's the best bowler in the Surrey team!! :D

Seriously, whatever happened to him? I thought he could bowl pretty damn well.

As for leggies:

Get Jenner out of there!! He turned Warnie into the great bowler he is. The LAST thing us Aussies need is for him to develop a leggie which will win the Ashes back for them! :lol:

In all seriousness (yes, it's been known to happen), there certainly is a distinct lack of encouragement for spinners in England but that means that the English heirarchy needs to simply try harder to develop someone or several someones. \

Mind you, although England has certainly been home to some of the greatest finger-spinners ever, it's been a while since England has a world-class wrist-spinner in the ranks.
 

Rich2001

International Captain
Originally posted by chris.hinton
Spinner should take Wickets not Contain
I agree, and also I blieve S.Warne made the same point when he was over here with Hamps (on the cricket4 roadshow/master-class)

He said that it isn't a spinners job to keep the score down, spinners always invite the batsman to take them on and a bowler shouldn't be down-hearted if he gets hit out of the ground, because it shows that the batsman is willing to hit over the top (therefore a higher risk of getting out)

And quoted from Warne from the Cricket4 site.

"One of the hardest things as a spin bowler when your growing up is to grip the ball and have the accuracy, so as a spin bowler you can get whacked out the park and lose the ball and all your mates start saying ‘that’s a good delivery isn’t it, it’s out for six’. But no matter how far they hit you out of the park the ball will always come back, or another ball, so you still get a chance to get him out next ball."
 

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