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Thread: Of 'fact free' criticism

  1. #1
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    Of 'fact free' criticism

    I think many would agree that there's plenty of that going around on this forum

    Let's collect a few favourites here.

    I'll throw in a few to start with

    1) India is a terrible away ODI team.

    2) The subcontinent teams are poor tourists in ODIs.

    3) The above tend to struggle to bat well outside their own countries.

    With regard to the above, here's a few facts that certain people here can shove wherever they want

    I chose to collect all matches played under Saurav Ganguly's captaincy for India. That turned out to be a 'nice' number- 20. So chose the last 20 away matches for ALL teams to compare.

    arranged in order of decreasing away win percentage; column headers are Team name, No. of away matches considered, no. of these won, no. lost, no. tied, win percentage, highest score, lowest score:

    Australia: 20 14 5 1 0 72% 338 162

    Pakistan: 20 13 7 0 0 65% 302 135

    India: 20 10 7 0 3 59% 326 123

    Sri Lanka: 20 11 9 0 0 55% 274 191

    S. Africa: 20 10 9 1 0 52% 363 106

    England: 20 10 10 0 0 50% 280 89

    W.Indies: 20 9 11 0 0 45% 324 119

    Zimbabwe: 20 8 12 0 0 40% 309 38

    and .... last but not the least....

    N.Zealand: 20 4 15 0 1 21% 291 122

    [Edited on 23/11/2002 by full_length]
    Cheers:)

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  2. #2
    Rik
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    Wow, 50% for England? That's not as bad as I thought...
    "Age is just a stupid number"

    20...that's a rather big number :(:(:(

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    Re:

    No not bad at all. England acquitted themselves very well in India, Pak, and Sri Lanka, esp. in India coming back to win the last two matches... and with a tough chase in Pak.

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    Rik
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    Originally posted by full_length
    No not bad at all. England acquitted themselves very well in India, Pak, and Sri Lanka, esp. in India coming back to win the last two matches... and with a tough chase in Pak.
    Not bad for a team constantly being branded as "****"


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    Laxman, the inconsistent test player

    Some choice observations:
    -He's an inconsistent player.
    -His average is going down (someone actually expects it to end up 'somewhere near Stephen Fleming- mid 30s' )


    Refer to http://forum.cricketweb.net/viewthre...id=341&page=15

    His history and stats are posted there.

    Some choice stats that make some people look really stupid are:

    His averages in the last three years:
    2000: 52 (5 inn)
    2001: 54.31 (16 inn)
    2002: 63.80 (19 inn)
    Average since Jan 1, 2000: 58.11
    Overall average: 43.6
    Note that he's played a LOT of innings this year and got an average of nearly 64 Very inconvenient eh?

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    Banned wahindiawah's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Rik
    Originally posted by full_length
    No not bad at all. England acquitted themselves very well in India, Pak, and Sri Lanka, esp. in India coming back to win the last two matches... and with a tough chase in Pak.
    Not bad for a team constantly being branded as "****"
    Unfortunately for England, the way things are going right now, that percentage will sufer and sufer alot! I do think that Aussie media was a bit harsh on England, but the English side really didn't put up a decent fight in any match and were asking for trouble.

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    Unfortunately for England, the way things are going right now, that percentage will sufer and sufer alot! I do think that Aussie media was a bit harsh on England, but the English side really didn't put up a decent fight in any match and were asking for trouble.
    Aren't you talking about tests here?

    All stats that I put up are for ODIs.

  8. #8
    Banned wahindiawah's Avatar
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    Oops my mistake, got mixed up between the two formats!

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    Eyes not spreadsheets marc71178's Avatar
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    Could you show us where exactly these "facts" have been posted - I don't remeber any of them in all honesty, I can remember things similar to what you've "quoted" here, but not exactly the same, and in some cases I think you've misinterpreted them.
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    quite familiar marc..

    the point of this topic is that none of the 'facts' were posted Are you asking about the enumerated points I made by any chance?

    which ones dont you remember?

    I forgot to put this in: please don't waste time with verbal gymnastics "I didnt say this exactly" or "those were not the *exact* words used". I wont get into that.

    [Edited on 24/11/2002 by full_length]

  11. #11
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    And now I am curious... surely you remember the laxman debate :O

  12. #12
    Eyes not spreadsheets marc71178's Avatar
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    I remember the Laxman, but I don't remember anyone saying he was inconsistent - far from it

    As for the India away games, that was referring to the different conditions in SA that they'll encounter wasn't it?


    So in effect these "facts" are your interpretation of posts which have been made?

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    State Vice-Captain Gotchya's Avatar
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    full_length, surely you took this out of context ?
    None of those 'accusations' make any sense...at all !

    Nobody said anything biased about India, there were no such stupid comments either. Just that you missed a few posts before the ones you are reacting to here.
    It has been reasonable analysis of the relative strength of your favourite side, and a such i find you reaction amusing.

    With regard to the above, here's a few facts that certain people here can shove wherever they want
    and for once stop being such a cynic
    Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box

  14. #14
    Eyes not spreadsheets marc71178's Avatar
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    I'm glad it's not just me that found his post strange.

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    hmm you find the post 'strange'..

    "Accusation" is too strong a word for what I did here Gotchya. I guess that suggestion that you can 'shove whereever..' came out sounding all wrong! (and some say a smilie makes it all right ) If you can, take that away and read the rest of what I said.

    I don't think I quoted anyone here, or made any kind of an 'attack' on any poster. I don't understand where the 'accusing' part came from.

    I am surprised that you chaps totally deny that the three misconceptions I referred to in my first post this topic are harboured by a good many here. If they are not, I stand corrected. Remember what that means-
    You say that most people on this forum agree that

    1) India, Pakistan and Sri Lanka have no more trouble than anyone else batting abroad in swinging/seaming/bouncing conditions, and in general, batting away from home.

    2) They(SC teams) perform just as well outside their respective nations as other countries, in ODIs.

    3) There is no skew in India's ability to perform overseas/home.

    4) Laxman is a consistant performer, and not just an over rated fellow with odd big scores, tall home records, and otherwise patchy performances.

    Strange. I thought that the first thing everyone factors into a discussion on a subcontinent team's chances or India's batting potency is where the match is held (call it 'conditions') and it's usually considered a bigger problem for these teams to bat well outside home than for other teams. If that's not true, I was off.

    (Note NZ's record outside home- the most skewed of all- I forgot to put this in my post as something people have missed.)

    I can point you to a number of topics where these were assumptions made by posters when discussing any ODI tournament that the subcontinent teams participated in (in evaluating their chances or their batsmen), but won't take that much trouble over this!


    The Laxman thingie is really strange.
    I thought that I heard atleast a few calls for Laxman's head (including from you Gotchya), mention that Laxman scores high in India alone that he is over rated (underrated I'd say!), he should make way for younger players ( :P ) etc. etc. I thought that also falls under the category of fact free criticism because these assumptions are not based on fact at all.



    Finally, an explanation of the topic:
    I intended this to be a topic where you can debunk any generally accepted myth floating around. In other words, point out where some criticism is based on assumtions that are NOT based on fact. Which is what I did.

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