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The stupidity of the PWC all rounder ratings:

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
1st Kallis - Fair enough, he's at 4 for batting and 6 for bowling

2nd Pollock - OK - he's 42 for batting, but 3 for bowling

3rd Cairns - 29 for batting and 12 for bowling

4th is Shane Warne - now I reckon this must be the first time he's been described as an all-rounder when people haven't been discussing his weight! - for the record, he's 83rd for batting and 4th for bowling!
 

Top_Cat

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What so you think the allrounder ratings are the only stupid and meaningless ones? :D I've been saying the same for years about the batting and bowling ones..............
 

Simon

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The all rounder rankings work just like the batting and bowling ones, if a players performs to a standard much better than his average he will go up, the better he performs the more points he gets, Warney scored 57 runs in the first test, compare that to his test average of 16 its obvious he would go up.
Graeme Smith did the same with his batting, he went from the 80's to top 20 after his 200.
 

Kiwi

State Vice-Captain
I have no problems with Warne being classed as an allrounder. He is an awesome bowler and has a couple of good scores with the bat beside his name.. Including a 99 against NZ:lol:
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
No they're not based on his average ata ll - they're based on conditions, opponents and other scores in the match - hence Gooch has the highest rated Innings of all time!
 

Bazza

International 12th Man
Aren't they calculated by multiplying the batting and bowling ratings together and then dividing by 1000 or something? So for example someone rated 700 for batting and 700 bowling is better than being 900 in one and 500 for the other. Hence being a more balanced all rounder is favoured. I guess there just aren't many at the moment (as we've discussed in another thread).

Overall I think the PWC ratings are very good and far more accurate than any other attempt to date.
 

Rik

Cricketer Of The Year
Originally posted by Bazzaroodoo
Aren't they calculated by multiplying the batting and bowling ratings together and then dividing by 1000 or something? So for example someone rated 700 for batting and 700 bowling is better than being 900 in one and 500 for the other. Hence being a more balanced all rounder is favoured. I guess there just aren't many at the moment (as we've discussed in another thread).

Overall I think the PWC ratings are very good and far more accurate than any other attempt to date.
I remember Jayasuria was in the All-Rounder's list for a while but then he really was chipping in with useful wickets and was in form with the bat. He should not be batting down the order, his place is opening and has been all his career.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
A point I've been stressing for quite some while now.

At the last check I made, Darren Gough was England's number 1 all rounder.
 

Top_Cat

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Maybe with the amount of cricket played these days, there are much fewer people who can actually bat AND bowl well on a consistent basis and maintain the energy to do so without getting burnt out, injured etc.
 

Anil

Hall of Fame Member
There is really an abject lack of quality all-rounders in modern cricket. When we think of how many there were in just the previous generation of players(Botham, Hadlee, Imran, Kapil, Clive Rice), there is no one who comes close currently. In fact Kallis is the only one who is eligible for that definition right now. Cairns could have been a top-notch all-rounder but for his frequent injuries and consequent time-offs.
 

masterblaster

International Captain
Yes your right Anil, we are not. But all rounders of the 90's and now the 2000's have all been useful Utility Cricketers. You think of Robin Singh, Abdur Razzaq, Azhar Mahmood, Shahid Afridi, Sanath Jayasuriya, Lance Klusener, Ajit Agarkar and Sanjay Bangar have all been classed as Utility Cricketers, but im not sure why a decent all rounder isnt coming up through the ranks.

Jacques Kallis is certainly the real deal in terms of an all rounder, Shaun Pollock and Chris Cairns are as close as they get, Symonds, Harvey and Lee were all utility cricketers which never became great, and Shane Watson has talent so you never know.
 

Bazza

International 12th Man
I have just had a thought as to the cause of this - ODIs. Compare the aformentioned Botham, Dev, Imran, Hadlee or whoever - they were guys who could compile centuries and destroy bowling lineupes (OK Botham wasn't quite the first but bear with me). These days it's the 'utility players' as have been mentioned. Boycott labelled them 'bits and pieces' players. They are the guys like Chris Harris or Mark Ealham who can bowl 10 overs for 30 runs and hit a quick 30 at no 7. Designed for one day cricket. Lance Klusener is more than military medium but he fits the bill - 4th bowler and middle order slogger. Flintoff also. This is as opposed to opening strike bowler and middle order batsman. What do you think of this 'theory'?
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Sounds about right to me, but I wish people would stop referring to the likes of Flintoff, Agarkar, Wasim, Klusener and even Pollock as all rounders!
 

anzac

International Debutant
There have been many different types of allrounders over the years - batsmen who bowl, 'keepers who bat, spinners who bat & quicks who bat. While we can still see 'keeper allrounders, I believe the other types are a dying breed - at least in comparison to the exploits of yester year.

My theory is that the reasons for this are not just the proliferation of ODI cricket these days, but moreso to do with the higher levels of specialisation, professionalism and training in the game over the past decade or so. This makes it virutually impossible for any 'new 'allrounder' to break thru into anything other than the ODI at international level. As the batting / bowling strength & depth has improved it has become more difficult for a good 'allrounder' to get picked ahead of the 'specialist' in either discipline.

Should they gain selection thesedays the 'batting bowlers' are often batting in the tail where they do not have the support in order to build partnerships or an innings, and subsequently have little opportunity to improve their skills, scores, averages etc.

This would be even more true for the 'bowling batters'. With team selections usually including at least one spinner, there is even less opportunity for a batsman to be anything other than another part time spin option. There are few of the former wobbly old slow / medium accurate line & length bowlers who did a little in the air or off the seam - a la Astle, Coney, S Waugh etc.

Incidentaly IMO the decline of the 'batting bowlers' & 'bowling batsmen' to my mind mirrors their decline in Aussie cricket - as it is Australia that is primarily responsible for raising the bar so far as professionalism & specialisation goes!!!!

There will still be the odd individual who rises from the ranks, but I feel they will primarily come from those nations who do not have the same degree of specialisation or depth of resources in these areas to 'exclude' allrounders.

So far as the current crop are concerned - I think we need to forget about comparisons with anything other than their current peers, as I feel this is about as good as it's going to get for some time!!!

My criteria for 'allrounder' is that they play both forms of the game and perform both roles (as opposed to irregularly like Ganguly or Astle recently), have at least scored a ton in one and a half century in the other, and have taken at least a 5 wicket bag preferrably in both forms of the game.

To this extent I would rate Kallis as the best and a 'bowling batsman' - more of a Sobers than a Roberts, Botham, Hadlee, Imran or Kapil Dev. The only other contender of this type I can think of is Razzaq. The remainder seem to be primarily 'batting bowlers'. Klusener has gone thru a form crisis and is on the down side of his career, as is Wasim & possibly Cairns if he can not keep free from injury.

On recent history I would probably rate them as Kallis, Cairns, Pollock & Razzaq, then a group including Wasim, Klusener, White, Mahmood, then the 'pretenders' who have yet to meet the criteria, including the likes of Warne, Flintoff, Agarkar & Lee. I like Lee as he reminds me of the likes of Hadlee, Imran, Wasim & Dev, but I doubt he'll get the opportunity to make good scores. No doubt there are other 'contender's / 'pretender's of all categories but I do not know of them well enough.

Incidentally if you wanted to broaden the scope of 'allrounder', then I would rate Gilchrist as the current number 1. This would also open the door for the likes of Stewart & Sangakarra as 'batting 'keepers'.

I regret the apparent demise of the allrounder in the modern 5 day game - they always used to be good for some action re bat or ball. However, has anyone else thought that the aggressive style of the Aussie test team with bat & ball mirrors what we used to look forward to from the 'allrounder's?????

(My appologies for the length of this post)

:)
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
That is a valid point calling keepers all-rounders - but I would ask is Gilly the best pure keeper in Aus, or Sangakkara in SL?

Stewart certainly isn't in England, and in my mind he should have played Tests as a batsman, and brought in Russell (who incidentally averages around 30 I believe) as keeper and number 7.
 

Bazza

International 12th Man
Except we've always felt the need to have 5 bowlers (and as current situation proves even that isn't enough!), hence Russell often missed out in favour of an extra bowler. If we could have had a situation like currently Australia - three or four world class bowlers who can run through any side in any conditions then maybe. Stewart isn't that bad a keeper in my opinion. I've recently heard alot of criticism for him saying that he is an ordinary keeper. I think he is a good keeper. Maybe not a Russell or a Healy but every bit the equal of Gilchrist, and when you consider he has spent most of a 120 test match/150 ODI match career opening the batting and even captaining for a couple of years, that ain't bad.
 

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