Sack Fleming says Parore

James · 09-02-2007, 04:37 PM

Adam Parore: Fleming should step down in favour of Vettori

Interesting to hear Adam Parore's thoughts, and he makes some good points. Especially this:

Quote:

New Zealand's overall win record in ODIs is about 45 per cent, while the winning ratio under his leadership is about 47 per cent. So he's only a whisker better than average.

Even Martin Crowe managed 49 per cent from his 44 games and he had some pretty ordinary players to work with. Fleming has had the cream of the crop in terms of talent.

Judging by this, what could Martin Crowe have done with today's team?

Matt79 · 09-02-2007, 04:57 PM

Provided it with an additional world class batsman for a start - Crowe's team had Crowe in it! Bit of an overreaction surely for failing in one ODI series, given how long Fleming has been held to be one of the best captains going around...

James · 09-02-2007, 05:01 PM

I suppose what Parore is getting at is with the record that Fleming has and the players he's had to choose from, he still has a worse record than Crowe. And with that in mind, how can he be considered one of the best captains?

Matt79 · 09-02-2007, 05:04 PM

did Crowe have Hadlee?

If Fleming had Bond available more often, Parore might have a point, but I think he's being a bit harsh.

James · 09-02-2007, 05:08 PM

As far as I know, no he didn't. Hadlee played his last matche in 1990, and I believe Crowe wasn't made captain until the following year.

The best bowler of Crowe's time as captain was probably Danny Morrison which says something....

Richard · 09-02-2007, 05:18 PM

Personally I always think such win-percentages are pretty dubious ways to judge a captain.

What matters is: is there substantial evidence to suggest that Daniel Vettori (or someone) would be a better captain - now (irrelevant to what's happened in the past) than Stephen Fleming?

Unless the answer's yes, I don't see how you can justify calling for Fleming's head.

And there are hundreds of ways better to judge a captain than results.

Matt79 · 09-02-2007, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James

As far as I know, no he didn't. Hadlee played his last matche in 1990, and I believe Crowe wasn't made captain until the following year.

The best bowler of Crowe's time as captain was probably Danny Morrison which says something....

There you go - I was under the mistaken impression that Crowe was captain a fair bit earlier than that...

Smudge · 09-02-2007, 05:31 PM

Personally, I know it's an easy excuse, but I'd blame Bracewell. He's had a much tighter rein on the team than when, say, Aberhart was in charge. Back at that stage, Fleming seemed to have a lot more control over the side, tactics and even his demeanour towards the media was a lot less cluttered. I don't want to see Fleming dropped.

And James, who do you think should take over? Considering you don't think Vettori is worthy of a spot in the ODI team...

thierry henry · 09-02-2007, 06:14 PM

Unsurprisingly, my take on this is that I'd like to see Vettori kept away from the captaincy so that he can be dropped whenever the selectors wake up to themselves about how useless he is, especially in tests

NZTailender · 09-02-2007, 07:07 PM

Fleming to stay captain until whenever he feels is the right time for him to retire, IMO.

Fulton to be next captain?

Craig · 09-02-2007, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NZTailender

Fleming to stay captain until whenever he feels is the right time for him to retire, IMO.

Fulton to be next captain?

As ignorant as it may sound, has Fulton ever captained before for Canterbury?

Craig · 09-02-2007, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thierry henry

Unsurprisingly, my take on this is that I'd like to see Vettori kept away from the captaincy so that he can be dropped whenever the selectors wake up to themselves about how useless he is, especially in tests

Well he did pick up ten wickets in his last Test, so it isn't that useless.

And he has as much chance of being dropped as there is of Michael Hussey being dropped from the Australian team.

thierry henry · 09-02-2007, 09:17 PM

AussieDominance · 09-02-2007, 09:24 PM

Nah Vettori has to be the next captain and has a good record and his guareenteed to be in the team. He has also been one of the World's best bowling allrounders over the last few years some might question his batting but http://cricketweb.net/statsspider/pl...460-Test-5.php shows that he can bat.

Some might question his captaincy qualificiations but as far as Im concerned he has learnt for many years off Fleming and will take over once he retires

thierry henry · 09-02-2007, 09:27 PM

No, you would question his bowling. Probing questions such as "why do you concede that many runs?", and "why don't you take wickets?".

View Poll Results: Should Stephen Fleming be sacked as captain?
Yes	3	8.11%
No	34	91.89%
Voters: 37. You may not vote on this poll

09-02-2007, 05:31 PM	#8 (permalink)
Smudge Hall of Fame Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Wellywood Posts: 16,552	Personally, I know it's an easy excuse, but I'd blame Bracewell. He's had a much tighter rein on the team than when, say, Aberhart was in charge. Back at that stage, Fleming seemed to have a lot more control over the side, tactics and even his demeanour towards the media was a lot less cluttered. I don't want to see Fleming dropped. And James, who do you think should take over? Considering you don't think Vettori is worthy of a spot in the ODI team... __________________ What do you mean?

09-02-2007, 07:07 PM	#10 (permalink)
NZTailender Hall of Fame Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Dunedin, Otago, New Zealand Posts: 19,046	Fleming to stay captain until whenever he feels is the right time for him to retire, IMO. Fulton to be next captain? __________________ President of SKAS - Kat is King \| Proud member of CVAAS - One of the best \| LRPLTAS - Rosco rocks! The NZTailender Supporting XI: L Vincent, H Rutherford, N Broom, Craig Cachopa, D Brownlie, BJ Watling, D de Boorder+, I Sodhi, B Wheeler, H Bennett, A Milne Go Tigers! R.I.P. Fardin & Craig

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
CWBCC Broadcast Network (Champions Trophy)	Mr Mxyzptlk	Cricket Web XI	1469	28-04-2007 10:08 AM
Sim a match	Pratters	Cricket Chat	342	31-12-2006 03:03 PM
*Official* New Zealand in Zimbabwe & Zimbabwe/New Zealand/India ODI Tri-Series	James	Cricket Chat	1876	23-09-2005 04:21 PM
Fleming reveals match-fix offer	Mister Wright	Cricket Chat	15	09-11-2004 02:37 AM
Damien Fleming retires	Hoggy	Cricket Chat	20	02-06-2003 06:30 AM

09-02-2007, 05:01 PM	#3 (permalink)
James Cricket Web Owner Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 22,299	I suppose what Parore is getting at is with the record that Fleming has and the players he's had to choose from, he still has a worse record than Crowe. And with that in mind, how can he be considered one of the best captains?

09-02-2007, 05:04 PM	#4 (permalink)
Matt79 Global Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Colll----ingggg---woooooodddd!!!! Posts: 17,427	did Crowe have Hadlee? If Fleming had Bond available more often, Parore might have a point, but I think he's being a bit harsh.

09-02-2007, 05:08 PM	#5 (permalink)
James Cricket Web Owner Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 22,299	As far as I know, no he didn't. Hadlee played his last matche in 1990, and I believe Crowe wasn't made captain until the following year. The best bowler of Crowe's time as captain was probably Danny Morrison which says something....

09-02-2007, 06:14 PM	#9 (permalink)
thierry henry International Captain Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 5,032	Unsurprisingly, my take on this is that I'd like to see Vettori kept away from the captaincy so that he can be dropped whenever the selectors wake up to themselves about how useless he is, especially in tests

09-02-2007, 09:17 PM	#13 (permalink)
thierry henry International Captain Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 5,032

09-02-2007, 09:24 PM	#14 (permalink)
AussieDominance Banned Join Date: May 2006 Location: Sydney Posts: 3,746	Nah Vettori has to be the next captain and has a good record and his guareenteed to be in the team. He has also been one of the World's best bowling allrounders over the last few years some might question his batting but http://cricketweb.net/statsspider/pl...460-Test-5.php shows that he can bat. Some might question his captaincy qualificiations but as far as Im concerned he has learnt for many years off Fleming and will take over once he retires

09-02-2007, 09:27 PM	#15 (permalink)
thierry henry International Captain Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 5,032	No, you would question his bowling. Probing questions such as "why do you concede that many runs?", and "why don't you take wickets?".

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)