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So I was watching a bit of test cricket over the weekend…

Dick Rockett

International Vice-Captain
Jeez, it was a fair post, but it wasn't the Gettysburg address or anything 8-)

Careful Jono, there might be a long line of CW posters following you with a tube of KY.
 

vic_orthdox

Global Moderator
Still think the title's pretty hilarious.

Another thing that we're seeing a lot of are guys who's strength is playing with their hands away from their body, which I think is mainly a result of ODI cricket. This is making them mroe susceptible to the moving ball - see Gibbs, AB de Villiers, etc.
 

Sir Redman

State Vice-Captain
16 tins of Spam said:
I've been saying for a long time now (although admittedly not on these boards), that the modern tendency towards big scores and batting records is mainly due to the dearth of quality bowlers in world cricket, rather than some sort of batting rennaissance.

Even the mighty Australians, who are by far the best team in the world right now, cannot handle swing and/or seam movement - see the 2005 Ashes, or practically every time they've faced Shane Bond.

So yeah, basically I agree with Jono there, although not with his assessment of NZ pitches, which I believe are based on an outdated stereotype. I certainly don't believe that greentops are anything for us to be ashamed of, but I was there at the Basin during the weekend, and that pitch was a road. It was a combo of quality bowling, and inept batting that ensured the result we got.
Yep, agreed. The Basin pitch was a road, and the Christchurch pitch was still a reasonable batting strip. And judging from some of the scores in the State Championship so far, there's been plenty of roads in domestic cricket - the problem was that our batsmen simply aren't good enough to play Murali & aren't used to Malinga's action. It's not as though he was bouncing out our batsmen - he only delivers the ball from shoulder height ffs - it was pretty much all yorkers that took wickets.
 

adharcric

International Coach
Top post Jono. I try not to give away the Afridi before the time for the weekly awards, but this week it's all yours mate.
Now I understand why I enjoy discussions with you more than anything else on CW ... you practically read my mind with this post, as usual.

Now, I think the post is getting slightly overrated due to the phenomenal length; it's a top quality post that took a lot of thought, but it's not a masterpiece tbh. Sorry mate. :p
 

adharcric

International Coach
Jono said:
The amazing thing about these wins is that the NZ and SA have been completely demolished by impressive fast bowling (yeah Murali and Kumble played parts in the wins, but Malinga for SL and Sreesanth and Zaheer for India were the main instigators). South Africa was embarrassingly dismissed in the 1st innings for only 84 by India on a track which was greatly helping the fast bowlers, and NZ themselves only made 130 on wickets they should be very used to by now. On top of that, its not like the fast bowlers were all-time greats; Malinga and Sreesanth are hardly your McGrath, Flintoff or Pollock (not yet anyway hey SilentStriker ;)), hell they’re not even as good or as experienced as Ntini, Nel, Akhtar and other very good fast bowlers around ATM. Yet they ran through the NZ and SA batting sides, with genuine pace and swing on helpful pitches for fast bowling.
Not only do this weekend's results indicate that New Zealand and South Africa struggle on bowler-friendly wickets, but also that the quality of fast bowling is developing more uniformly worldwide. India and Sri Lanka, two test nations with a traditional lack of quality pace bowlers, are developing talent in that department more regularly nowadays. This is due to a variety of factors - academies such as the MRF pace academy, overseas under-19 and A-team tours and the gradual improvement of pitches in India and Sri Lanka. We still have a long way to go to be on par with the McGraths, Flintoffs and Pollocks of test cricket, but the progress is there and this is playing a part in exposing the vulnerability of non-sub continental sides on bowler-friendly tracks.
 

Dick Rockett

International Vice-Captain
adharcric said:
this weekend's results indicate that New Zealand and South Africa struggle on bowler-friendly wickets
IT. WAS. A. ROAD.

Normally I wouldn't give a toss what people think of the state of our pitches, but if people (not just you, adharcric) actually persist in calling the Basin pitch last weekend "bowler friendly", it calls into question their analysis of the game, and also begs the question, were they actually watching?
 

adharcric

International Coach
16 tins of Spam said:
IT. WAS. A. ROAD.

Normally I wouldn't give a toss what people think of the state of our pitches, but if people (not just you, adharcric) actually persist in calling the Basin pitch last weekend "bowler friendly", it calls into question their analysis of the game, and also begs the question, were they actually watching?
Sorry, I wasn't watching the NZ-SL match. I was just responding to Jono's analysis. My point about the uniform improvement in the quality of fast bowling still stands. :)
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
16 tins of Spam said:
IT. WAS. A. ROAD.

Normally I wouldn't give a toss what people think of the state of our pitches, but if people (not just you, adharcric) actually persist in calling the Basin pitch last weekend "bowler friendly", it calls into question their analysis of the game, and also begs the question, were they actually watching?
First of all, there is nothing wrong with NZ pitches. One of the fantastic things about cricket are the different pitches in different countries.

However, I did watch the game, and I didn't think it was a road really. It wasn't a crazy WACA wicket or anything, but a road?
 

R_D

International Debutant
16 tins of Spam said:
IT. WAS. A. ROAD.

Normally I wouldn't give a toss what people think of the state of our pitches, but if people (not just you, adharcric) actually persist in calling the Basin pitch last weekend "bowler friendly", it calls into question their analysis of the game, and also begs the question, were they actually watching?
NZ cricket must be in bigger trouble than we thought... if they can't even score on the road.
 

Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
16 tins of Spam said:
IT. WAS. A. ROAD.

Normally I wouldn't give a toss what people think of the state of our pitches, but if people (not just you, adharcric) actually persist in calling the Basin pitch last weekend "bowler friendly", it calls into question their analysis of the game, and also begs the question, were they actually watching?
But conditions favoured swing bowling true? I mean Malinga wasn't bowling straight up and down yorkers.
 

dontcloseyoureyes

BARNES OUT
Jono said:
But conditions favoured swing bowling true? I mean Malinga wasn't bowling straight up and down yorkers.
That's got more to do with the oft overcast conditions rather than the state of the pitch, IMO.

I watched the game and it looked pretty flat to me. Wasn't much seam movement at all, turned a bit (Murali could turn it on ice, so I looked at Vettori and he turned it enough) and the bounce was pretty true.
 

Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
dontcloseyoureyes said:
That's got more to do with the oft overcast conditions rather than the state of the pitch, IMO.

I watched the game and it looked pretty flat to me. Wasn't much seam movement at all, turned a bit (Murali could turn it on ice, so I looked at Vettori and he turned it enough) and the bounce was pretty true.
Yeah I understand that, the overcast conditions helped Malinga swing it late. That's sort of my point, whether it be swing like Sreesanth and Zaheer got in SA, and Malinga here, or seam like Clark was getting in SA earlier in the year, they did look pretty helpless at times. I mean Malinga was ripping out stumps yorkers/full tosses on a regular basis.
 

dontcloseyoureyes

BARNES OUT
I doubt you could find many batsman in history who can keep consistent 140+kmph yorkers out on a day. Eventually one would get even the best. Especially if they're swinging late.
 

Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
vic_orthdox said:
Still think the title's pretty hilarious.
Lol, glad someone liked it. Thought it was the best bit of the post tbh :ph34r:
vic_orthdox said:
Another thing that we're seeing a lot of are guys who's strength is playing with their hands away from their body, which I think is mainly a result of ODI cricket. This is making them mroe susceptible to the moving ball - see Gibbs, AB de Villiers, etc.
Yes! Excellent point that I failed to mention. I think its best seen in Gibbs, and it saw his downfall in both innings. A lot of batsmen just flay their arms outside off, and when the ball is going straight up and down, it can be effective and look very good.

If you look at Gibbs' 175 vs. Aus in the 434 chase, a lot of his shots were him just lofting through or over the covers with gay abandon. Most of those shots were him flaying Lee away from his body. He did get to the pitch of Lewis' half volley length balls, but when Gibbs was first getting started in his innings he was hitting Lee with balls that could have gone to point at any time.

It looks awesome and is bloody entertaining when it works for you, but when the ball is doing a lot (off the pitch or in the air) and your team is struggling, and needs you to buckle down, its not smart.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Yea top post yo, definately on of the best i've seen on this site. Read it twice just to find something to disagree with, good stuff Jono..
 

Dick Rockett

International Vice-Captain
silentstriker said:
First of all, there is nothing wrong with NZ pitches. One of the fantastic things about cricket are the different pitches in different countries.
I agree.

silentstriker said:
However, I did watch the game, and I didn't think it was a road really. It wasn't a crazy WACA wicket or anything, but a road?
It was pretty harmless, yeah. Good bowling, poor batting.

R_D said:
NZ cricket must be in bigger trouble than we thought... if they can't even score on the road.
Haha, maybe. I don't really think so though - that batting lineup doesn't really reflect our future.

Jono said:
But conditions favoured swing bowling true? I mean Malinga wasn't bowling straight up and down yorkers.
Maybe on the Sunday, when it was overcast for a little while. The rest of the time the weather was lovely, aside from a strong wind at times. If Malinga got swing, it was probably down to skill on his part. I guess that backs up your original post.
 

Pratters

Cricket, Lovely Cricket
Top post. Swing bowling does trouble most batsmen right now. Even if it has been repeated a lot of times, I will repeat that the batting standards have declined right now over the board. The Champions Trophy did not see teams score a lot of runs would be the strong base for the given argument which should convince most detractors. How many teams have been scoring runs in tough batting conditions whenever they do face tough batting conditions?

There is the second aspect of bounce. Now different players will obviously be more adept and different bouncing conditions when the swing factor isn't huge as we do see in cricket. A subcontinent player, because of the lower bounce, can play cross batted shots in home conditions but those same shots result in wickets. The same goes for players playing outside the subcontinent coming into the subcontinent - they require specific skills and adaptability to play on particular pitches. Now, it has been argued by commentators and others that it is far easier to adopt to lower bounce than higher bounce but regardless of the legitimacy of that claim, there are more factors to playing on subcontinental pitches than just lower bounce - variable bounce being the big one.

Mukul Kesavan (one of the best cricket writers around for me) wrote an excellent piece a few months ago in an issue of Cricinfo magazine where he asked the question which is at the heart of our angst I think - when a non-subcontinent player plays brilliantly at his home, he is applauded but when a subcontinent player does that in his home turf, it is discounted as playing on roads. Discounting because of home advantage has been over rated in cricket - every one has the home advantage. I can give several instances of teams from away losing on testing pitches in the subcontinent as opposed to flatter tracks and complaining vehemently while when the subcontinent players lose on fast pitches, they are laughed at by fans and media.

A larger point is also very true - In testing conditions, particularly right now, most batsmen struggle regardless of the country they play in and regardless of the country they are from. Specifically, subcontinent batsmen shouldn't be maligned just because they are from the subcontinent.
 
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