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Ponting to 3rd Highest in History

shortpitched713

International Captain
Ponting can bat the way he does because he never has to fear that if he falls the rest of the batting lineup will fall as well. In one dayers especially he can go in there and attack even if Australia have lost a few wickets because Australia's depth in batting means that they'll almost always get at least a decent score. Thats one of the reasons that Australia are next to unbeatable in ODIs IMO.

Tendulkar and Lara, on the other hand, don't have this luxury and often have to bat with the burden of the entire team's innings on their shoulder. Surely a much tougher task, and one that Ponting hasn't really had the opportunity to do.
 

mohammad16

U19 Captain
shortpitched713 said:
Ponting can bat the way he does because he never has to fear that if he falls the rest of the batting lineup will fall as well. In one dayers especially he can go in there and attack even if Australia have lost a few wickets because Australia's depth in batting means that they'll almost always get at least a decent score. Thats one of the reasons that Australia are next to unbeatable in ODIs IMO.

Tendulkar and Lara, on the other hand, don't have this luxury and often have to bat with the burden of the entire team's innings on their shoulder. Surely a much tougher task, and one that Ponting hasn't really had the opportunity to do.
dude, they are more beatable in odis then in tests
word up
 

shortpitched713

International Captain
Still doesn't mean they're not unbeatable in ODIs. Actually, considering the nature of ODIs where luck plays a bigger role in the outcome than in Tests, I'd say Australia's recent dominance in ODIs has to be just as impressive as their ability to dominate in Tests.
 

Slifer

International Captain
Up until around 2001 Ponting was averaging low to mid forties after about 50 tests. 5 years later and his average is now around sixty. I wonder what could have happened around 2001 to cause this amazing spike in form (sarcasm)? Yeah Ponting is batting phenominally but where was this phenominal batting when the big boys were around.?Incidentally during the same period that Ponting was in the mid/low forties SRT was tottering just below 60 and BCL was low 50s. For me Ponting is just another one of those batsmen who has greatly capitalised on the bare bowling stock in world cricket.
 

FaaipDeOiad

Hall of Fame Member
Slifer said:
Up until around 2001 Ponting was averaging low to mid forties after about 50 tests. 5 years later and his average is now around sixty. I wonder what could have happened around 2001 to cause this amazing spike in form (sarcasm)? Yeah Ponting is batting phenominally but where was this phenominal batting when the big boys were around.?Incidentally during the same period that Ponting was in the mid/low forties SRT was tottering just below 60 and BCL was low 50s. For me Ponting is just another one of those batsmen who has greatly capitalised on the bare bowling stock in world cricket.
Up until 1994, Steve Waugh was averaging under 40 from around 60 test matches. Six years later his average was up around 52, and he averaged 51 for his career. I wonder what could have happened around 1994 to cause this amazing spike in form? Obviously he capitalised on facing the weak bowlers of the 1990s, scoring big runs on the roads of 1995 in the West Indies against rubbish bowlers like Ambrose and Walsh, dominating the poor seamers of South Africa in 1997 on more flat graveyard pitches, and so on.

There's no doubt Ponting has faced some poor bowlers and benefited from some flat wickets, but to attribute his average of 70+ in the last five years to that is just laughable. For a start, when he has faced good bowlers and lively wickets he's still made big runs, and world cricket isn't exactly swamped with guys averaging around 60. The fact is that in the early part of his career Ponting was a far worse batsman than he is now, though he showed plenty of potential and made some runs against great bowlers, he lacked consistency and his shot selection caused huge problems for him. Some players develop slower than others, that's all there is to it.

A lot of Ponting's improvement can be attributed to some hard work on his game after being dropped from the team a couple of times and having a horror run in India in 2001, and many people have mentioned getting married as an important step for him personally as well. It's not as though world cricket was packed with great bowlers in 99, 2000 and 2001 and they all suddenly disappeared when Ponting started making runs.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
For a start, when he has faced good bowlers and lively wickets he's still made big runs,
*COUGH* Ashes 2005 *COUGH*

OK, so I'm being a bit facetious, I do think he would have averaged less than SRT/Lara had his prime been in the 90's, though he still would have averaged somewhere in the low fifties or so, I think.
 

FaaipDeOiad

Hall of Fame Member
silentstriker said:
*COUGH* Ashes 2005 *COUGH*

OK, so I'm being a bit facetious, I do think he would have averaged less than SRT/Lara had his prime been in the 90's, though he still would have averaged somewhere in the low fifties or so, I think.
Well really, it's impossible to argue with this because it's entirely speculative, but I don't think there's much actual justification for it as an argument. IMO, Ponting has done more than enough on dicey wickets and against quality pace bowling to suggest to me that he'd be a great success in an era with top class fast bowlers and livelier pitches. To begin with, Ponting did actually have some measure of success against the quality seamers of the 90s. I just finished watching some of a mid-90s match where he made 88 against Ambrose, Walsh and Bishop in fact. He also made big runs against Wasim and Waqar and Donald and Pollock, and this is despite the fact that he was, frankly, a shadow of the player he is now when those players were playing. He didn't have a great record against the West Indies pre-2000, but he certainly had success against them and averaged 40 odd, while his average against South Africa pre-2000 was 49.60, and against Pakistan it was 63.20.

The main reason Ponting averaged in the low 40s in the first 5 or so years of his career isn't because he was dominated by these great pace attacks, but because he struggled in India, against England, and even against New Zealand. In other words, it was because he was a talented but inconsistent player and not because these bowlers had the best of him on a regular basis. As I pointed out in the above post, Steve Waugh had an absolutely shocking record for 8 or 9 years of test cricket, and was picked for his bowling half the time and averaged under 40. On top of that, that high 30s average was actually inflated by one really good series where he finally came good as a batsman before fading away again, in 1989. Despite that, it'd be absolutely absurd to suggest that the reason he didn't come good and become an all-time great until the mid to late 90s is because he couldn't handle the tremendous bowling of Phil DeFreitas and company in the late 80s and early 90s. It was simply a matter of when he matured as a batsman and when he made the necessary adjustments to his technique and shot selection to succeed, much like Ponting.

There is a valid argument that Ponting would struggle if he had to play all the time on slow, low turning wickets against quality spin attacks, but they didn't exactly abound in the 90s, and the argument that he'd struggle against Ambrose, Donald etc is a bit stupid because a) he didn't, and b) he's better now anyway. There's also the fact that Tendulkar (for example) has a lower average in the "easy" period where Ponting has been averaging 70+ than he did in the period where it is claimed Ponting would have struggled. Obviously this has plenty to do with the fact that he's declined as a player, but Ponting is written off for his pre-2001 average when was obviously not as good as he is now, which suggests a somewhat different standard for the two players.

My view is that people take a rather rose-tinted view of Tendulkar and Lara because they are the greats of an era which is currently viewed as a golden age of cricket. The reality is that like all players they made more runs in easier situations and against weaker bowlers than they did in more trying circumstances, and while their achievements are significant I don't see any particular reason to believe that modern players aren't capable of similar things. Lara is certainly the most dangerous of the four in my view when he gets it right, but I'd take Dravid for consistency against a variety of bowling attacks and in a variety of conditions, and Ponting in a pressure situation or for reliability against quality pace bowling in general, and both of them pretty comfortably. Tendulkar is probably the best of the bunch against spin, though Lara obviously pushes him quite close in that regard and Ponting, while quite a good player of spin, is well behind the other three. Tendulkar is certainly the best ODI player of the bunch, if you take that into account, with Ponting probably second and Dravid last by a reasonable distance. Dravid and Ponting are still in the middle of their careers and that is a barrier to giving a conclusive reading of their abilities, but there's no doubt in my mind that all four players deserve the status of all-time greats, and when all of them have completed their careers I think they will be on a comparable level as batsmen.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
Ponting, if he keeps it up (and does well in India) can match or perhaps exceed Tendulkar and Lara.

Dravid won't. He doesn't dominate the way the other three do (or did). And its not about rose -tinted glasses IMO. Look Yousuf is a great player, and has had a better year than Ponting too..so he's now up there as well (his average is creeping up too, BTW)?

And I did not say they can never reach Tendy or Lara status. But to do so, they would have to far surpass what those two did to be considered on the same level. Ponting is getting there, if he:

A) Keeps this form up for another year, maybe two
B) Has a decent series in India (say an average of 45+)

I will classify him right up there with Lara and Sachin. Not there yet.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
It was quite interesting hearing Mikey Holding talking about the problems of bowling to Ponting the other day. Like most people I've always thought that with his shuffle across his stumps & the way his head falls away to the off-side Punter is a prime candidate for LBWs, particularly early in his innings. Holding said that he & his fellow Windies quicks thought the same thing about Dennis Amiss after he made his return to Tests in 1976. Holding said that Amiss's shuffle was so pronounced that they fancied hitting his leg stump behind his pads.

Holding related that he did bowl Amiss behind his pads. Unfortunately he had 203 at the time! I think the point he makes is a valid one; one might spot a flaw but one still has to be good enough to capitalise. As often as not if bowlers make the mistake of bowling at Ponting's stumps they're deafened by the rattle of the ball on the on-side boundary. We clearly came out with a plan to bowl outside his off-stump at Adelaide, but that didn't work out so well either. Bloke's a genius.
 

mohammad16

U19 Captain
BoyBrumby said:
It was quite interesting hearing Mikey Holding talking about the problems of bowling to Ponting the other day. Like most people I've always thought that with his shuffle across his stumps & the way his head falls away to the off-side Punter is a prime candidate for LBWs, particularly early in his innings. Holding said that he & his fellow Windies quicks thought the same thing about Dennis Amiss after he made his return to Tests in 1976. Holding said that Amiss's shuffle was so pronounced that they fancied hitting his leg stump behind his pads.

Holding related that he did bowl Amiss behind his pads. Unfortunately he had 203 at the time! I think the point he makes is a valid one; one might spot a flaw but one still has to be good enough to capitalise. As often as not if bowlers make the mistake of bowling at Ponting's stumps they're deafened by the rattle of the ball on the on-side boundary. We clearly came out with a plan to bowl outside his off-stump at Adelaide, but that didn't work out so well either. Bloke's a genius.
inzi has the same problem, he goes way across the stumps, and a quick full delivery can easily get him trapped for an lbw desision
 

FaaipDeOiad

Hall of Fame Member
BoyBrumby said:
Holding related that he did bowl Amiss behind his pads. Unfortunately he had 203 at the time! I think the point he makes is a valid one; one might spot a flaw but one still has to be good enough to capitalise. As often as not if bowlers make the mistake of bowling at Ponting's stumps they're deafened by the rattle of the ball on the on-side boundary. We clearly came out with a plan to bowl outside his off-stump at Adelaide, but that didn't work out so well either. Bloke's a genius.
Yeah, basically getting Ponting LBW you're relying on him missing a straight ball, which he generally won't do all that often. The best way to bowl to Ponting is definitely to keep it wide of off-stump because he scores so freely through the leg-side and almost never gets out to any of his run scoring shots in that area. He's fantastic through the covers though, and if you get too wide or overpitch slightly he'll murder you out there.

If a quality spinner is available, you'd definitely want to get a spinner on as soon as Ponting comes out if possible. Aside from shuffling across and falling over to the off-side, playing spin early in his innings is his other main weakness. He's a very good player of spin when he's set though, so you only have a fairly brief window.
 

mohammad16

U19 Captain
FaaipDeOiad said:
Yeah, basically getting Ponting LBW you're relying on him missing a straight ball, which he generally won't do all that often. The best way to bowl to Ponting is definitely to keep it wide of off-stump because he scores so freely through the leg-side and almost never gets out to any of his run scoring shots in that area. He's fantastic through the covers though, and if you get too wide or overpitch slightly he'll murder you out there.

If a quality spinner is available, you'd definitely want to get a spinner on as soon as Ponting comes out if possible. Aside from shuffling across and falling over to the off-side, playing spin early in his innings is his other main weakness. He's a very good player of spin when he's set though, so you only have a fairly brief window.
i still remember how shaoib once made a fool of ponting straight delivery he tried to flick the ball hard to the leg side, the ball jus went right through him

that whole over was amazing, from the first ball shoaib set him up, the 5th ball he tried to get on the front foot, it was too pacy though, he coudlnt get enough forward and the ball bottom edged towards the slips


Also ponting struggles alot againts quality finger off spinners, I remember saqlain used to give him a reall tough time, he looked clueless againts saqlain
harbajan also gave him some troubles if i remember correctly
set him up with that for the last ball which just was too quick and went through him
one of the best wicket maiden overs i saw
and that over was a first change too, it wasnt like he had the new ball
 

mohammad16

U19 Captain
BoyBrumby said:
It was quite interesting hearing Mikey Holding talking about the problems of bowling to Ponting the other day. Like most people I've always thought that with his shuffle across his stumps & the way his head falls away to the off-side Punter is a prime candidate for LBWs, particularly early in his innings. Holding said that he & his fellow Windies quicks thought the same thing about Dennis Amiss after he made his return to Tests in 1976. Holding said that Amiss's shuffle was so pronounced that they fancied hitting his leg stump behind his pads.

Holding related that he did bowl Amiss behind his pads. Unfortunately he had 203 at the time! I think the point he makes is a valid one; one might spot a flaw but one still has to be good enough to capitalise. As often as not if bowlers make the mistake of bowling at Ponting's stumps they're deafened by the rattle of the ball on the on-side boundary. We clearly came out with a plan to bowl outside his off-stump at Adelaide, but that didn't work out so well either. Bloke's a genius.
i wouldnt qualify ponting as a genius
hes a great great player, but really the word genius only applies to lara and tendular in the modern era
maybe also shane warne
 

Slifer

International Captain
FaaipDeOiad said:
Well really, it's impossible to argue with this because it's entirely speculative, but I don't think there's much actual justification for it as an argument. IMO, Ponting has done more than enough on dicey wickets and against quality pace bowling to suggest to me that he'd be a great success in an era with top class fast bowlers and livelier pitches. To begin with, Ponting did actually have some measure of success against the quality seamers of the 90s. I just finished watching some of a mid-90s match where he made 88 against Ambrose, Walsh and Bishop in fact. He also made big runs against Wasim and Waqar and Donald and Pollock, and this is despite the fact that he was, frankly, a shadow of the player he is now when those players were playing. He didn't have a great record against the West Indies pre-2000, but he certainly had success against them and averaged 40 odd, while his average against South Africa pre-2000 was 49.60, and against Pakistan it was 63.20.

The main reason Ponting averaged in the low 40s in the first 5 or so years of his career isn't because he was dominated by these great pace attacks, but because he struggled in India, against England, and even against New Zealand. In other words, it was because he was a talented but inconsistent player and not because these bowlers had the best of him on a regular basis. As I pointed out in the above post, Steve Waugh had an absolutely shocking record for 8 or 9 years of test cricket, and was picked for his bowling half the time and averaged under 40. On top of that, that high 30s average was actually inflated by one really good series where he finally came good as a batsman before fading away again, in 1989. Despite that, it'd be absolutely absurd to suggest that the reason he didn't come good and become an all-time great until the mid to late 90s is because he couldn't handle the tremendous bowling of Phil DeFreitas and company in the late 80s and early 90s. It was simply a matter of when he matured as a batsman and when he made the necessary adjustments to his technique and shot selection to succeed, much like Ponting.

There is a valid argument that Ponting would struggle if he had to play all the time on slow, low turning wickets against quality spin attacks, but they didn't exactly abound in the 90s, and the argument that he'd struggle against Ambrose, Donald etc is a bit stupid because a) he didn't, and b) he's better now anyway. There's also the fact that Tendulkar (for example) has a lower average in the "easy" period where Ponting has been averaging 70+ than he did in the period where it is claimed Ponting would have struggled. Obviously this has plenty to do with the fact that he's declined as a player, but Ponting is written off for his pre-2001 average when was obviously not as good as he is now, which suggests a somewhat different standard for the two players.

My view is that people take a rather rose-tinted view of Tendulkar and Lara because they are the greats of an era which is currently viewed as a golden age of cricket. The reality is that like all players they made more runs in easier situations and against weaker bowlers than they did in more trying circumstances, and while their achievements are significant I don't see any particular reason to believe that modern players aren't capable of similar things. Lara is certainly the most dangerous of the four in my view when he gets it right, but I'd take Dravid for consistency against a variety of bowling attacks and in a variety of conditions, and Ponting in a pressure situation or for reliability against quality pace bowling in general, and both of them pretty comfortably. Tendulkar is probably the best of the bunch against spin, though Lara obviously pushes him quite close in that regard and Ponting, while quite a good player of spin, is well behind the other three. Tendulkar is certainly the best ODI player of the bunch, if you take that into account, with Ponting probably second and Dravid last by a reasonable distance. Dravid and Ponting are still in the middle of their careers and that is a barrier to giving a conclusive reading of their abilities, but there's no doubt in my mind that all four players deserve the status of all-time greats, and when all of them have completed their careers I think they will be on a comparable level as batsmen.
No no no SRT is not a better player of spin than BCL. Maybe SRT is better at playing pace but not spin.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
Yes, Lara is a better player of spin. SRT is better against pace. Of course, when Lara is on song, he's the best one out of almost anyone...ever. The problem with Lara, and the reason he wouldn't make my all time side, is that he has been way too inconsistent compared to the others. On song though, he might just be second only to Bradman.
 

mohammad16

U19 Captain
silentstriker said:
Yes, Lara is a better player of spin. SRT is better against pace. Of course, when Lara is on song, he's the best one out of almost anyone...ever. The problem with Lara, and the reason he wouldn't make my all time side, is that he has been way too inconsistent compared to the others. On song though, he might just be second only to Bradman.
on song lara is comparable to on song richards, they both take it to a whole new level above tendulkar and the rest

but the disperity between richards being on song and not isnt as great as in lara
still i think its close between him and lara if both are in the zone
i think id take richards
 

mohammad16

U19 Captain
Slifer said:
No no no SRT is not a better player of spin than BCL. Maybe SRT is better at playing pace but not spin.
its very interesting tohugh, i dont think anyone plays wrist spin better then lara, there is no doubt about that

but ive seen lara struggle againts finger offspinners, he doenst seem to pick the lenght right
i no saqlain gave lara a very hard time sometime ago and also u saw a glimpse of that in the current series pak vs windies where hafeez and shoaib malik out of nowhere started troubling the in form lara.

but as a player of wrist spin, warne, kanera, murali alike hes by far the best

but as a player of finger off spin, id take tendulkar over lara
 

FaaipDeOiad

Hall of Fame Member
Slifer said:
No no no SRT is not a better player of spin than BCL. Maybe SRT is better at playing pace but not spin.
Well, Shane Warne disagrees. Suffice to say that it is close between the two of them in terms of playing spin bowling. They're both incredibly good and far better than Ponting in that regard.

I'd take Lara over Tendulkar against quality pace bowling every time though, especially on a wicket with some life.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
FaaipDeOiad said:
Well, Shane Warne disagrees. Suffice to say that it is close between the two of them in terms of playing spin bowling. They're both incredibly good and far better than Ponting in that regard.

I'd take Lara over Tendulkar against quality pace bowling every time though, especially on a wicket with some life.
I don't know about that - unless you take for granted that Lara will be at Lara's best. If not, I would take Sachin's ability to make scores more consistently over Lara. Lara averages more in South Africa by a small margin, and Tendulkar averages more in NZ by a small margin.
 
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mohammad16

U19 Captain
FaaipDeOiad said:
Well, Shane Warne disagrees. Suffice to say that it is close between the two of them in terms of playing spin bowling. They're both incredibly good and far better than Ponting in that regard.

I'd take Lara over Tendulkar against quality pace bowling every time though, especially on a wicket with some life.
woah thats a rare statement

tendulkar is a better player of pace then lara, lara only reaches or exceeds tendulkars level if he is well set

id take tendulkar againts the best pace bowlers anyday
 

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