View Poll Results: Who is the best Spinner ever?

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  • Shane Warne

    27 43.55%
  • Muttiah Muralitharan

    25 40.32%
  • Other (are you crazy, better than these 2?)

    10 16.13%
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Thread: Best Spinner ever

  1. #151
    Hall of Fame Member FaaipDeOiad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R_D
    Yeah i watched Pieterson get bamboozled around his legs by Warne yesterday... just showed how good he really is against spin. Its not like Pieterson was totally dominating warne on the flat deck either.... its just that Warne was trying to bore him into getting out rather than taking his wicket with a good delivery.
    You might have missed the 2nd innings how most of the Englishbatsman had no clue to Warne's bowling..... Even though Collingwood survived for so long... he wasn't sure what to do for most of his innings against Warne.
    And did you watch Pietersen hit back to back centuries against Murali, absolutely dominate his bowling and average 72 for the series? Or is Murali an average bowler because Pietersen made runs against him too?
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  2. #152
    Cricketer Of The Year Anil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FaaipDeOiad
    Pietersen certainly has the edge on Warne in this series. Last series was fairly even though, and Warne's knocked him over four times. It's fairly similar to his battle with Murali, really. Pietersen's got on top a few times and suffered on others.

    As far as his record in India goes, there's no denying it's poor. I think there's a few reasons for this personally. Warne's worst period in his career was from 98-2002 or so, where he suffered a series of injuries of different kinds and struggled against all opposition, and he was unfortunate enough to tour India twice in this period. His other tour of India he did fine and averaged 30. He's played them twice at home too, once was in between the two poor tours, and the other was his debut series. Regardless of all that, it's not as though Murali's record in India is that much better. There's hardly any spinners with a good record in India in the last couple of decades, and the few that there are tend to be finger spinners, presumably because of how well the Indian batsmen play off their pads. Saqlain has a good record there for instance.

    Anyway, this is Warne's record in India: 9 matches, 34 wickets @ 43.12, SR 81.03, ER 3.19

    And this is Murali's: 8 matches: 31 wickets @ 39.58, SR 81.87, ER 2.90.

    Murali's is marginally better yeah, but I wouldn't call it a huge gap. There's no doubt Indian batsmen play him well, but it's a bit silly to say that you simply "can't rate Warne that highly" because of his terrible record in India, but ignore Murali's. Same point remains as with their overall record really. If you rate Murali higher fair enough, but rating him better solely on the basis of his average being slightly lower is a bit absurd.

    Anyway, I wasn't intending to get into another Warne v Murali debate to be honest, just to make a point about judging players on their averages alone. They're a useful guide in many ways, but you certainly can't use them as your basis to judge a player because there are simply so many situations in every match which they don't take into account.
    if you want to make excuses for warne for his earlier poor showing in india, then excuses have to be made for the indian players' collective lack of form in 2004-'05 and that has to given as a major reason for his improved showing...

  3. #153
    R_D
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    Murali's record in India is bit deceptive...He played 5 test in India before 97/98 and one of the series he avg 103 for 2 matches and there wasn't a single a result in that series.... all tests were draws. Murali certainly wasn't that good spinner pre 2000.
    No other spinner has run through the india lineup like Murali did in 2005 in the 2nd test match at Delhi.. i couldn't beleive my eyes.
    By the way overall Test records of Warne and Murali vs India are quite interesting.

    Murali
    Mat O R W BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10
    15 795.4 2176 67 8/87 11/196 32.47 2.73 71.2 4 1

    Warne
    14 654.1 2029 43 6/125 6/113 47.18 3.10 91.2 1 0
    Not including Warne's debut horror show against India

    12 586.1 1801 42 6/125 6/113 42.88 3.07 83.7 1 0

  4. #154
    Hall of Fame Member FaaipDeOiad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anil
    if you want to make excuses for warne for his earlier poor showing in india, then excuses have to be made for the indian players' collective lack of form in 2004-'05 and that has to given as a major reason for his improved showing...
    I guess we can just disregard that entire part of his career then. I'm sure that will suit Warne fine.


  5. #155
    R_D
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    Quote Originally Posted by FaaipDeOiad
    And did you watch Pietersen hit back to back centuries against Murali, absolutely dominate his bowling and average 72 for the series? Or is Murali an average bowler because Pietersen made runs against him too?
    Admitedly i didn't watch the series but there was a big hoo hay made of that one handed six by Pieterson i guess. Pieterson avg 72 for the series i don't see how that would make Murali look like an avg bowler, its not like he was bowling every single bowl to KP... what it does show though is how medicore Sri Lanka's overall bowling was. He made back to back Centuries against Sri Lanka, Murali is not the only bowler so i don't know what you're trying to get at by saying he scored back to back centruries against Murali... sure he's the only one who takes most of the wickets but not the only one who bowls.
    Murali Avg 16.71 for the series and took 24 wickets.. further proof of English batsman inability to play spin.

  6. #156
    Hall of Fame Member FaaipDeOiad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R_D
    Murali's record in India is bit deceptive...He played 5 test in India before 97/98 and one of the series he avg 103 for 2 matches and there wasn't a single a result in that series.... all tests were draws. Murali certainly wasn't that good spinner pre 2000.
    No other spinner has run through the india lineup like Murali did in 2005 in the 2nd test match at Delhi.. i couldn't beleive my eyes.
    I don't think their respective records in India are indicative of the abilities of either bowler, actually. Murali has only played India once when he was in good form and at the peak of his career, and he did fine. I think you can say the same thing about Warne. My point was merely that if you are going to take Warne's overall record in India and use it to discredit him as a bowler, you can quite easily do the same for Murali.

    Regarding their overall records against India, Murali certainly has a fantastic record against them at home. Warne's only played India twice at home, one was his debut series and the other was in between his two horrible tours there. I think he'd have done better against them if they toured more often, but unfortuantely we'll never know. Warne may play one more series against India at home before he retires, but it's difficult to see him doing that well, given he'll be 39 or so.

  7. #157
    Hall of Fame Member FaaipDeOiad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R_D
    Admitedly i didn't watch the series but there was a big hoo hay made of that one handed six by Pieterson i guess. Pieterson avg 72 for the series i don't see how that would make Murali look like an avg bowler, its not like he was bowling every single bowl to KP... what it does show though is how medicore Sri Lanka's overall bowling was. He made back to back Centuries against Sri Lanka, Murali is not the only bowler so i don't know what you're trying to get at by saying he scored back to back centruries against Murali... sure he's the only one who takes most of the wickets but not the only one who bowls.
    Murali Avg 16.71 for the series and took 24 wickets.. further proof of English batsman inability to play spin.
    I assure you that Pietersen played Murali extremely well. I don't think he made Murali look average, since he's a fantastic bowler and one of the best ever, but he certainly had the best of him in the first and second tests. Murali dismissed him cheaply in both innings of the final test IIRC. It's not like he made the runs against other bowlers either. He faced nearly half his deliveries from Murali every time, and scored faster off Murali than the other bowlers, similar to the way he plays Warne.

    Here's the stats from his centuries. In his 158 in the first test, Pietersen faced 66 balls from Murali and scored 54 runs, including a six and 6 fours. He didn't bat in the second innings. In the second test, Pietersen scored another century and faced 58 balls from Murali, scoring 56 runs before Murali eventually dismissed him for 142. Murali also got him in the second innings for 13. In the third test, Pietersen scored 41, and took 19 in 14 balls from Murali, before Murali got him out for the third time in the series. Murali also got him in the second innings for 6, as he took 8/70 and won the match.
    Last edited by FaaipDeOiad; 05-12-2006 at 07:01 PM.

  8. #158
    R_D
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    Quote Originally Posted by FaaipDeOiad
    I don't think their respective records in India are indicative of the abilities of either bowler, actually. Murali has only played India once when he was in good form and at the peak of his career, and he did fine. I think you can say the same thing about Warne. My point was merely that if you are going to take Warne's overall record in India and use it to discredit him as a bowler, you can quite easily do the same for Murali.

    Regarding their overall records against India, Murali certainly has a fantastic record against them at home. Warne's only played India twice at home, one was his debut series and the other was in between his two horrible tours there. I think he'd have done better against them if they toured more often, but unfortuantely we'll never know. Warne may play one more series against India at home before he retires, but it's difficult to see him doing that well, given he'll be 39 or so.
    Fair enough.
    My original point was about few people discrediting Murali for taking alot of his wickets against Bang and Zimb. He has a pretty good if not better record than Warne against most other nations as well. It be undertandable if he had medicore record against other nations to hold it against him. The English team well i consider them to be good as bangladesh against spin, now they have KP who can take the attack upto Warne but you could put a case that Warne's had truck loads of free wickets against Eng just like Murali has against Zimb and Bang.

  9. #159
    Cricketer Of The Year Anil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FaaipDeOiad
    I guess we can just disregard that entire part of his career then. I'm sure that will suit Warne fine.
    i'm sure it will... but let's not disregard the fact that he has been a pretty comprehensive failure in india and against india except for one moderate series(let's not dilute the facts with excuses, he was still taking wickets by the truckload against his english and south african bunnies during that period(1998 - 2002, i think you said?), wasn't he?)...while murali has done very well against them in sri lanka and has done better than warne against them in india...

  10. #160
    Hall of Fame Member FaaipDeOiad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anil
    i'm sure it will... but let's not disregard the fact that he has been a pretty comprehensive failure in india and against india except for one moderate series(let's not dilute the facts with excuses, he was still taking wickets by the truckload against his english and south african bunnies during that period(1998 - 2002, i think you said?), wasn't he?)...while murali has done very well against them in sri lanka and has done better than warne against them in india...
    He didn't really play them in the period between the tours. He did have a good Ashes series after the 2001 tour of India though, and has really only had one poor series in his career against any opposition since then, which was against New Zealand. Between the Indian tours, he only averaged below his career average in a series twice, once against Zimbabwe (from one test), and once against Sri Lanka.

    Otherwise he averaged 54 against India, 55 against England (one test), 134 against the West Indies, 30 against Pakistan, 41 against India, 27 against New Zealand and 50 against India again. After the tour of India in 2001 he had a good Ashes series, and in the five years since then he has only averaged over 30 in a series three times. Once was immediately afterwards against New Zealand, once in India again (30.07), and once against South Africa at home last year.

    In fact, between that '98 tour of India and his first success in test cricket against the West Indies in 1992, he had only averaged over 30 in one series, which was against Sri Lanka in 1996.

    Warne also went through his most serious injuries in this period and missed large amounts of cricket. Even leaving India aside, it's obviously his worst period in test cricket by a long way. Excluding this year (which hasn't finished yet obviously), Warne has averaged over 30 in six years in his career. One was his debut year in 1992, another was 1996 when he only played four tests, and the other four are 1998, 1999, 2000 and 2001.

    Simply put, while Warne's record against India is very poor, it is entirely centred around this period of his career. Of his five series against India, three are in this period, one is his debut series and the other one is pretty good. I think if he'd only played New Zealand or Pakistan in this period his record against them would be pretty bad too, and I don't think it it's stretching things very much at all to suggest that if Warne had played India more regularly, or at least over a larger spread of years rather than three times in four years and almost never otherwise, his record would be better. Even if it wasn't, it would certainly be a fairer representation. It's not so much about making excuses for his poor performance, because even in 2004 Indian batsmen played pretty well and I doubt he'd average less than 30 in India at any point, but pointing out that Warne's record in India isn't a particularly complete representation of his career.

  11. #161
    You'll Never Walk Alone Nate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBH001
    Yep, I did - post below from previous page.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    Well, 20 of Murali's test matches have been played against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe and his record against them is considerably better than his overall record.

    Even so, Zimbabwe needs to be broken down into the pre Mugabe and post Mugabe phase - as in the pre Mugabe phase they did have a good test side with decent batsmen and bowlers and I would hardly classify them as minnows.

    In any case, I nevertheless removed Murali's record against Zim and Bang.
    Here are his revised test career stats against all nations except the above.

    88 Tests
    29985 balls
    12339 runs
    520 wickets (5.9 wkts/test)
    9/65 BBi
    16/220 BBm
    23.72 runs/wkt
    57.66 balls/wkt
    2.46 econ
    43 5wi
    13 10wm

    These are Warne's total career figures.
    Note, he played only 1 test versus Zimbabwe and his record his not much better than his career record, he has also played 2 tests against Bangladesh for a poorer record against them compared to his overall record.
    Therefore Warne's figures against all test playing nations - this time, in the earlier post it did not include the second Ashes test, with the stats from the second Ashes test. I did remove figures against Zim and Bang because of the small sample and also because doing so leaves Warne's figures, more or less as they are, or actually better - in which case we would have to include Murali's figures too, and that would defeat the point of the exercise.
    So, Warne's complete career figures:

    142 Test
    40025 balls
    17662 runs
    694 wickets (4.88 wkts/test)
    8/71 BBi
    12/128 BBm
    25.44 runs/wkt
    57.67 balls/wkt
    2.64 econ
    36 5wi
    10 10wm

    Even removing the figures against Zim and Bang (though as I said Zim had a decent test side up until 2001 or thereabouts) Murali has better or equal figures in all departments.

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  12. #162
    Cricketer Of The Year Anil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FaaipDeOiad
    pointing out that Warne's record in India isn't a particularly complete representation of his career.
    certainly not and i've never said that it is, however people always seem to give spinners(especially warne) the benefit of the doubt if they don't perform in india and i would say the scales there are not so tilted in the home batsmen's favour....because while indian batsmen are supposed to be excellent players of spin, the pitch conditions in india favour spin bowling to an extravagant extent as well...so a champion bowler like warne would be expected to exploit the conditions better and make it more of a battle....and overall he has failed to do that....that is one of the reasons i admire bowlers like mcgrath and hadlee so much, going into totally unfriendly conditions like in india and bowling as superbly as they did....

  13. #163
    Global Moderator Matt79's Avatar
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    I'm not sure, but wonder whether its not a bit of a furphy that conditions in India should be considered favourable to Warne's style of bowling. If you look at where he's performed best it's been in Australia (which maybe is obvious) and otherwise in conditions not normally considered favourable to spinners - eg his best ground in Australia is the Gabba, considered a fast bowlers pitch normally. In contrast, few touring spinners ever do much good in Australia, including Murali to be honest. It might be that the pitches in India simply don't suit his bowling. Is this a reasonable theory or not?
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  14. #164
    Cricketer Of The Year Anil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt79
    I'm not sure, but wonder whether its not a bit of a furphy that conditions in India should be considered favourable to Warne's style of bowling. If you look at where he's performed best it's been in Australia (which maybe is obvious) and otherwise in conditions not normally considered favourable to spinners - eg his best ground in Australia is the Gabba, considered a fast bowlers pitch normally. In contrast, few touring spinners ever do much good in Australia, including Murali to be honest. It might be that the pitches in India simply don't suit his bowling. Is this a reasonable theory or not?
    i don't think so...in fact that would just be another excuse(a really lame one) to cover up his failure there....in any case, he's failed against india in australia as well....

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by FaaipDeOiad
    On Warne today, this is a perfect example of why you can't judge players solely on their statistical records.

    In the match, Warne took 5 for 216 from 85 overs, which is around his normal rate of wicket taking, but with an average of 43 and a strike rate over 100. That makes it a pretty poor match by his standards. Only his economy rate was lower than his career record.

    Nevertheless, Warne was one of the best players in the game. He played a crucial role in the first innings keeping the runs down on a flat wicket, though overall he didn't bowl particularly well and got the worst figures of his whole career. His 4/49 in the second innings is a good set of figures, but doesn't tell the story of his impact at all. Without Warne, Australia wouldn't even have gotten close to winning the match. He only took the two top order wickets, but bowling non-stop from one end for the whole day and the pressure he exerted had a huge impact on England's negative style of play which eventually stopped them from setting a reasonable target and saving the game. When Warne's career is long over and people are writing about his achievements in the game, there's no doubt today's performance will be mentioned as an example of his brilliance, and the fact that his test average is higher than it was before the match doesn't have any bearing on that.

    He took the first two wickets to fall to a bowler on the day, including the top scorer and the best batsman in the team, and his pressure caused a run-out, which Warne himself finished off with a direct hit from close range after Clarke's wayward throw. After lunch he came back and picked up two more wickets when the tail looked set to keep Australia in the field for long enough to earn the draw. To put it simply, 5/216 doesn't tell the full story of his impact, just like you'll see plenty of games where a player will take a sizable bag of wickets because nobody else is capable of taking them and have basically no impact on the outcome of the match. Both Warne and Murali have done this from time to time.

    Mind you, I'm not suggesting Murali wouldn't be capable of any of the things Warne did today (though I do rate Warne's presence on the field and his ability to exert pressure higher), but it's things like this which make saying "X player has an average 2 runs better than Y player, therefore he is inarguably the superior player" pretty stupid, IMO.
    Exactly. Great post.

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