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Why is McGrath NOT an all-time great?

Dark Hunter

State Vice-Captain
The only thing i can think of is that he has had a great team around him. I mean, one of the things that makes him so great, is his ability to frustrate a batsman out. 6 balls in the exact same spot over after over. However, i don't think this would be as effective if he didn't have, A)the large totals to bowl with that Australia's batting lineup usual provides, and B) the quality bowling to support him. Batsmen get out to him because they feel under pressure to make runs against him, when they're chasing 500 and you've got Warne or Lee at the other end. Take away either the large total, or the quality bowlers and you've got less pressue on the batsman, meaning they're less likely to be frustrated out, or play a stupid shot.That being said, he will always be a great bowler, and his ability to hit the same spot over and over is unmatched. Should deffinitely be remembered as one of the greats of australian, and world cricket.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
Too slow. I love it. Not even worth fighting that one. Good luck with Thompson bowling at 95mph. It'll be great for that spectator on the balcony behind the batsman when every other delivery goes straight at him.
 

aussie tragic

International Captain
Matt79 said:
I'm considering promoting McGrath into my alltime XI, which I've only done for two other current players. Obviously at the moment, there's heaps of talk, and certainly some compelling performances to suggest that he deserves a spot over the myriad of other fantastic quicks who have played a game.
I believe McGrath is a definite starter for an all-time Aussie XI (with Lillee, Lindwall, Warne & Miller), however for an all-time World XI I think he'd be struggling, for example could you rate him at least # 3 out of the following 10 players (not counting Barnes & Lohmann):

Marshall, Ambrose, Lillee, Hadlee, Imran, Holding, Garner, Trueman, Younis, Donald.

And oh yeah, he's easily the worst batsman of the lot :)
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
aussie tragic said:
I believe McGrath is a definite starter for an all-time Aussie XI (with Lillee, Lindwall, Warne & Miller), however for an all-time World XI I think he'd be struggling, for example could you rate him at least # 3 out of the following 10 players (not counting Barnes & Lohmann):

Marshall, Ambrose, Lillee, Hadlee, Imran, Holding, Garner, Trueman, Younis, Donald.

And oh yeah, he's easily the worst batsman of the lot :)
Yes, he's the worst batsman of the lot, and yes I would rate him easily as #3 out of them.

My attack would be:

McGrath, Marshall, Ambrose, with Sir Sobers as the all rounder.

So, something like:

1. Gavaskar (IND)
2. Hobbs (ENG)
3. Bradman (AUS)
4. Tendulkar (IND)
5. Sobers (WI)
6. Sir Viv (WI)
7. Gilchrist + (AUS)
8. Warne (AUS)
9. Ambrose (WI)
10. Marshall (WI)
11. McGrath (AUS)

Someone has to bat at 11, and with your top seven being Gavaskar/Hobbs/Bradman/Tendy/Sobers/Viv/Gilchrist...I don't think you'll be needing the #11 to bat much ;). You can even argue for the inclusion of Imran at the expense of one the batsman, but then you'd have 4 pacers (plus Sir Sobers) and 1 spinner (plus Sir Sobers)...and that might be too many bowlers.

Considering the quality of the two teams, its Aus and WI heavy (4 aussies, 4 windies). I wanted to work another Englishman in there, but couldn't really justify it. Also, a couple Saffies probably might make it on talent, but because of the ban, I can't justify that either.

Hadlee unlucky to miss out IMO. I think he was the best bowler out of the four all rounders of the 80's and would make a push I think. He might be the 12th man.
 
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bagapath

International Captain
in this batting age - and we are blaming the wickets, balls, protective equipment everything for the phenomenal batting averages - mcgrath averages better than richard hadlee, imran khan, dennis lillee and holding. takes more wickets per test than marshall, ambrose, akram, lindwall and garner. he consistently gets the best batsmen out. and he.. oh.. oops... sorry... you want someone to argue why he is NOT a great bowler... its gonna be tough, mate. he is right up there with the best. and also better than most of them.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
bagapath said:
in this batting age - and we are blaming the wickets, balls, protective equipment everything for the phenomenal batting averages - mcgrath averages better than richard hadlee, imran khan, dennis lillee and holding. takes more wickets per test than marshall, ambrose, akram, lindwall and garner. he consistently gets the best batsmen out. and he.. oh.. oops... sorry... you want someone to argue why he is NOT a great bowler... its gonna be tough, mate. he is right up there with the best. and also better than most of them.
Finally! Someone else speaks the truth. :)
 

Slifer

International Captain
Not to nit pick but he doesnt quite take more wkts per test than Marshall. Anyway Mcgrath is certainly one of the top 3 pacers of all time (along with Marshall, and Hadlee IMO). MY Xi would have:
Imran
Hadlee
Marshall
Mcgrath as its main bowlers with Murali to replace Mcgrath if the pitch demands.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
Slifer said:
Not to nit pick but he doesnt quite take more wkts per test than Marshall. Anyway Mcgrath is certainly one of the top 3 pacers of all time (along with Marshall, and Hadlee IMO). MY Xi would have:
Imran
Hadlee
Marshall
Mcgrath as its main bowlers with Murali to replace Mcgrath if the pitch demands.
What pitch would that be? I am asking because unlike some of the other all time greats, McGrath really doesn't have a weakness when it comes to pitch type. He's been successful even in the subcontinent flat pitches.
 

nightprowler10

Global Moderator
silentstriker said:
He's been successful even in the subcontinent flat pitches.
This is one of the things that has really impressed me about McGrath. He started out very ordinarily in the subcontinent, averaging over 50 at one point, but he learned from his experiences and has brought his average down to 23 now (it was even lower - 21 - before the '04 series in India). Easily the second best pace bowler to hail from Australia.
 

nightprowler10

Global Moderator
I have to admit though, if I were to think with my brain instead of my heart, McGrath comes out as the best pace bowler Australia has produced.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
nightprowler10 said:
I have to admit though, if I were to think with my brain instead of my heart, McGrath comes out as the best pace bowler Australia has produced.
Yea, depending on which head I think with, Jessica Alba and Elisha Cuthbert would come out to be the best actresses of all time ;).
 

nightprowler10

Global Moderator
silentstriker said:
Yea, depending on which head I think with, Jessica Alba and Elisha Cuthbert would come out to be the best actresses of all time ;).
This post just to make your other head think harder.
 

bagapath

International Captain
well, one weakness in an otherwise awesome career of mcgrath must be his lack of stomach churning pace. at best he was fast medium. in an "all time XI" you would want to give the ball to express quicks and keep mcgrath level pace at first change.
 

Slifer

International Captain
silentstriker said:
What pitch would that be? I am asking because unlike some of the other all time greats, McGrath really doesn't have a weakness when it comes to pitch type. He's been successful even in the subcontinent flat pitches.
Well none of the other bowlers in my list has a weakness to a particular pitch either. But the pitches Im talking about would be like those on offer in Sri Lanka. U wouldnt find many of those around the world, which is y i chose Mcgrath over Murali.
 

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