Which team's alltime XI is best?

[Chubby Rain]

There are several differences.

Can't see them honestly.

 

[aussie]

Just a thought, instead of in the future running different all-time series between sides, i think it would be a good idea to simulate an entire All-time tournament between the established 8-test nations to decide which country's All-time XI over the course of test history can claim to have produced the best players ever & be crowed to best side ever?.

Only problem is that simulating such a thing would take a long time i.e 30 plus matches based on on potential tournament structure i came up with below. I would run it myself personally but don't have the system.

Game 1: England vs Australia, Lord’s, London, England
Game 2: India vs New Zealand, Wankhede Stadium, Mumbai, India
Game 3: South Africa vs Pakistan, New Wanderers, Johannesburg, South Africa
Game 4: West Indies vs Sri Lanka, Kensington Oval, Bridgetown, Barbados
Game 5: Australia vs New Zealand, Melbourne Cricket Ground, Australia
Game 6: India vs England, Eden Gardens, Kolkatta, India
Game 7: Pakistan vs West Indies, National Stadium, Karachi, Pakistan
Game 8: Sri Lanka vs South Africa, Galle International Stadium, Sri Lanka
Game 9: Australia vs India, W.A.C.A, Perth, Australia
Game 10: New Zealand vs England, Basin Reserve, Wellington, New Zealand
Game 11: Pakistan vs Sri Lanka, Ibn-e-Qasim Bagh Stadium, Multan, Pakistan
Game 12: West Indies vs South Africa, Queens Park Oval, Trinidad
Game 13: Australia vs Pakistan, “The Gabba”, Brisbane, Australia
Game 14: England vs South Africa, AMP Oval, London, England
Game 15: Sri Lanka vs India, Premadasa Stadium, Colombo, Sri Lanka
Game 16: New Zealand vs West Indies, Jade Stadium, Christchurch
Game 17: England vs Pakistan, Headingley, Leeds, England
Game 18: South Africa vs Australia, Newlands, Capetown, South Africa
Game 19: Sri Lanka vs New Zealand, Sinhalese SC, Colombo, Sri Lanka
Game 20: West Indies vs England, Sabina Park, Kingston, Jamaica
Game 21: Pakistan vs India, Gadaffi Stadium, Lahore, Pakistan
Game 22: Australia vs Sri Lanka, Adelaide Oval, Australia
Game 23: South Africa vs New Zealand, Kingsmead, Durban, South Africa
Game 24: India vs West Indies, MA Chidambaram Stadium, Chennai, India
Game 25: New Zealand vs Pakistan, Eden Park, Auckland, New Zealand
Game 26: England vs Sri Lanka, Old Trafford, Manchester, England
Game 27: Australia vs West Indies, Sydney Cricket Ground, Australia
Game 28: India vs South Africa, MA Chinasammy Stadium, Bangalore, India


Semi-Final 1: Team 1 vs Team 3, Team 1 Home Venue
Semi-Final 2: Team 2 vs Team 4, Team 2 Home Venue

FINAL: Winner SFI VS Winner SF2, Lord’s, London, England

Team would play at least 7 matches some more at home than others, but that would be part of the challenge i guess. Awarding points to team over the course of a match i think the structure used in the Asian Test Championship in 99 seems a very fair way of awarding points.

Also the squads, picked 15 with 5 back-ups for each in the event of form slumps etc..

AUSTRALIA ALL-TIME 15-MAN SQUAD:

Donald Bradman* - Captain, Adam Gilchrist+ - W/Keeper. Rodney Marsh+ - W/Keeper, Matthew Hayden, Bobby Simpson, Greg Chappell, Steve Waugh, Ricky Ponting, Keith Miller, Allan Davidson, Shane Warne, Bill O’Reilly, Ray Lindwall, Dennis Lillee, Glenn McGrath.

BACK-UPS: Neil Harvey, Bill Ponsford, Allan Border, Richie Benaud, Frederick Spofforth.

ENGLAND ALL-TIME 15-MAN SQUAD:

Leonard Hutton* - Captain, Les Ames+ - W/Keeper, Allan Knott+ - W/Keeper, Jack Hobbs, Dennis Compton, Walter Hammond, Ken Barrington, Kevin Pietersen, Ian Botham, Wilfred Rhodes, Jim Laker, Freddie Trueman, John Snow, Sydney Barnes, Bob Willis.

BACK-UPS: Ted Dexter, Herbert Sutcliffe, Andrew Flintoff, Hedley Verity, Harold Larwood.

WEST INDIES ALL-TIME 15-MAN SQUAD:

Vivian Richards* - Captain, Jeffery Dujon+ - W/Keeper, Conrad Hunte, Gordon Greenidge, Brian Lara, George Headley, Gary Sobers, Clyde Walcott, Everton Weekes, Malcolm Marshall, Joel Garner, Curtly Ambrose, Michael Holding, Andy Roberts, Lance Gibbs.

BACK-UPS: Frank Worrell, Clive Lloyd, Desmond Haynes, Courtney Walsh, Ridley Jacobs.

INDIA ALL-TIME 15-MAN SQUAD:

Vijay Hazare* - Captain, Syed Kirmani+ - W/Keeper, Farook Engineer+ - W/Keeper, Sunil Gavaskar, Vijay Merchant, Rahul Dravid, Sachin Tendulkar, Polly Umrigar, Vinoo Mankad, Kapil Dev, Javagal Srinath, Amar Singh, Anil Kumble, Erapalli Prasanna, Bishen Bedi.

BACK-UPS: Dillip Vengsarkar, Virender Sehwag, Mohammad Azharuddin, Bhagwat Chandrasekar, Mohammad Nissar.


PAKISTAN ALL-TIME 15-MAN SQUAD:

Imran Khan* - Captain, Wasim Bari+ - W/Keeper, Rashid Latif+ - W/Keeper, Saeed Anwar, Haniff Mohammad, Zaheer Abbas, Javed Miandad, Inzamam-ul-Haq, Mohammad Yousuf, Asif Iqbal, Wasim Akram, Waqar Younis, Fazal Mahmood, Abdul Qadir, Intikhab Alam.

BACK-UPS: Mushtaq Mohammad, Majid Khan, Saleem Malik, Shoaib Akhtar, Saqlain Mushtaq.

SOUTH AFRICA ALL-TIME 15-MAN SQUAD:

Mike Procter* - Captain, John Waite+ - W/Keeper, Denis Lindsay+ - W/Keeper, Barry Richards, Bruce Mitchell, Graeme Pollock, Dudley Nourse, Jacques Kallis, Daryll Cullinan, Clive Rice, Aubrey Faulkner, Hugh Tayfield, Shaun Pollock, Allan Donald, Neil Adcock.

BACK-UPS: Gary Kirsten, Herbie Taylor, Peter Kirsten, Peter Pollock, Vince van der Bijl.

NEW ZEALAND ALL-TIME 15-MAN SQUAD:

John Reid* - Captain, Ian Smith+ - W/Keeper, Adam Parore+ - W/Keeper, Stewart Dempster, Glen Turner, Bert Sutcliffe, Martin Crowe, Martin Donnelly, Andrew Jones, Chris Cairns, Richard Hadlee, Bruce Taylor, Shane Bond, Jack Cowie, Daniel Vettori.

BACK-UPS: Hedley Howarth, Stephen Fleming, Nathan Astle, John Wright, Richard Collinge.

SRI LANKA ALL-TIME 15-MAN SQUAD:

Arjuna Ranatunga* - Captain, Kumar Sangakkara+ - W/Keeper, Romesh Kaluwitharana+ - W/Keeper, Sanath Jayasuriya, Marvan Atapattu, Aravinda De Silva, Mahela Jayawardene, Roy Dias, Asanka Gurusinha, Chaminda Vaas, Lasith Malinga, Ravi Ratnayake, Muttiah Muralitharan, Samochandra De Silva, Ajith De Silva.

BACK-UPS: Sidath Wettimuny, Hashan Tillakaratne, Rumesh Ratnayake, Ashanta De Mel.

Thoughts?..

 

[adharcric]

You can use VC4 to simulate these but this would kill the charm IMO. Personally find it more exciting with Aus-WI, Eng-SA, Ind-Pak and the like. Up to you though.

 

[Perm]

Thoughts?..

Sri Lanka need another backup

 

[roseboy64]

Riveting young man...

 

[JBMAC]

Don Tallon as back upkeeper not Marsh for australia

 

[Matt79]

Don Tallon as back upkeeper not Marsh for australia

Ian Healy is DEFINITELY one of the three best keepers Australia's produced.

 

[nightprowler10]

You can use VC4 to simulate these but this would kill the charm IMO. Personally find it more exciting with Aus-WI, Eng-SA, Ind-Pak and the like. Up to you though.

Agreed tbh. We could always come up with a schedule not unlike FTP for all teams playing at each other's backyards and go through them series by series. As adharcic said, doing a tournament kind of loses the charm and realism of the whole thing.

 

[JBMAC]

Ian Healy is DEFINITELY one of the three best keepers Australia's produced.

Tallon,Grout,Marsh,Murdoch and Blackham rate above him as a Keeper....without a doubt

 

[Matt79]

I'm afraid that I disagree with you about that - unless you're talking purely as a keeper and ignoring the other contributions as a player - ie player and team man - or rating perceptions of talent above achievement.

Tallon was a keeper whose skills were without parallel, and who probably missed his best years as a player, and as a batsman in particular. He'll always be the romantic/potential selection as a pure keeper.

Grout would be right up there behind only Gilchrist, Healy, and Marsh. He was by all accounts extremely sure with the gloves, a genuine team man, and a very astute VC for the team. But Healy and Marsh, and obviously Gilchrist, were also those things, plus better batsmen.

Murdoch and Blackham are from a vastly different era, and while I rate them extremely highly and love the "what-ifs" of comparing them to modern greats (I don't think anyone here can accuse me of being a modernist - I rate Trumper and Grace ahead of Brian Lara!), IMO placing them above a Healy or Marsh is doing what I said earlier, putting perceived talent above the evidence of the modern player's achievements.

Marsh is right up there neck-and-neck with Healy. In my mind, one thing that hurts him compared with Healy and Gilchrist is that he never kept to a spinner the likes of Warne or MacGill. Still an absolute champ.

 

[JBMAC]

I'm afraid that I disagree with you about that - unless you're talking purely as a keeper and ignoring the other contributions as a player - ie player and team man - or rating perceptions of talent above achievement.

Tallon was a keeper whose skills were without parallel, and who probably missed his best years as a player, and as a batsman in particular. He'll always be the romantic/potential selection as a pure keeper.

Grout would be right up there behind only Gilchrist, Healy, and Marsh. He was by all accounts extremely sure with the gloves, a genuine team man, and a very astute VC for the team. But Healy and Marsh, and obviously Gilchrist, were also those things, plus better batsmen.

Murdoch and Blackham are from a vastly different era, and while I rate them extremely highly and love the "what-ifs" of comparing them to modern greats (I don't think anyone here can accuse me of being a modernist - I rate Trumper and Grace ahead of Brian Lara!), IMO placing them above a Healy or Marsh is doing what I said earlier, putting perceived talent above the evidence of the modern player's achievements.

Marsh is right up there neck-and-neck with Healy. In my mind, one thing that hurts him compared with Healy and Gilchrist is that he never kept to a spinner the likes of Warne or MacGill. Still an absolute champ.

Having seen all the keepers[except Blackham/Murdoch lol] mentioned I assure you as a "gloveman" those I mentioned were FAR superior....It was Healey to a lesser extent and Gilchrist who raised the bar for the position of keepers by becoming an "all rounder".And I agree Trumper and Grace definitely rate ahead of Lara who IMHO has been overated.
Tallon,Grout and Marsh would have been more than capable of handling Warne because of their superior glove working ability.Grout did keep to Benaud who I would rate second best of the leggies I have seen and played with.

BTW the classiest gloveman of them all only played 7 Tests before injury got him..John MacLean from QLD.Check out his Test and FC Record.

 

[Matt79]

Hmmm... interesting stuff on MacLean. One of the real "couldabeens" from the look of it, unlucky to coincide with Marsh's career. What makes you say he was the classiest out of interest?

I have no problem with Tallon or Grout handling Warne. My 'beef', if regarding them as out-and-out champions and top-drawer keepers is classified as a beef, with them is limited opportunities/limited record for the former and weaker batting for the latter.

Tallon retains some fame, helped by the accounts of the leg-glance he caught, and these days being listed by Bradman in his XI. But Grout is no doubt a forgotten champion these days, but the bloke was an ornament to the game and a pillar of the Aussie team for many a year.

Healy might not have been the absolute best behind the stumps, but I think he can be called very very good without fear of exaggeration - I'd say head and shoulders above any of today's regular international keepers. He was also extremely durable, a great team man, a good VC, a great conductor in the field, plus, until Gilchrist and Flower, he was as a good a longterm batsman/keeper as has been seen probably since Ames (both Walcott and Dujon were arguably better, but neither were able to sustain it longterm at a level higher than Healy - Walcott of course giving away the gloves and Dujon's batting declined - he was a better batsman but worse keeper to begin with anyway).

 

[JBMAC]

Hmmm... interesting stuff on MacLean. One of the real "couldabeens" from the look of it, unlucky to coincide with Marsh's career. What makes you say he was the classiest out of interest?

I have no problem with Tallon or Grout handling Warne. My 'beef', if regarding them as out-and-out champions and top-drawer keepers is classified as a beef, with them is limited opportunities/limited record for the former and weaker batting for the latter.

Tallon retains some fame, helped by the accounts of the leg-glance he caught, and these days being listed by Bradman in his XI. But Grout is no doubt a forgotten champion these days, but the bloke was an ornament to the game and a pillar of the Aussie team for many a year.

Healy might not have been the absolute best behind the stumps, but I think he can be called very very good without fear of exaggeration - I'd say head and shoulders above any of today's regular international keepers. He was also extremely durable, a great team man, a good VC, a great conductor in the field, plus, until Gilchrist and Flower, he was as a good a longterm batsman/keeper as has been seen probably since Ames (both Walcott and Dujon were arguably better, but neither were able to sustain it longterm at a level higher than Healy - Walcott of course giving away the gloves and Dujon's batting declined - he was a better batsman but worse keeper to begin with anyway).

Matt, John MacLean was a pure keeper even though he did score quite a few runs at first class level.The man stood some 6 ft 3" and weighed about 100-105kgs.Huge forearms and hands and his nickname was "Porky".He was literally picked from obscurity when the WC was formed and from his four Tests he did have some 18 dissmissals. Injured his hand and never got his Test spot back due to an up and comer from WA named Rod Marsh.Then Cricket all played "happy Families: again and he never got a Test call up again.
You will note though he continued playing Sheffield Shield for QLD and did not do too badly. For the size of his frame he was extremely agile and certainly took some screamers down the leg side..Great anticipation and could "read" what a bowler was trying to do. A real Cricket Tragic of what might have been if..........

 

[aussie]

You can use VC4 to simulate these but this would kill the charm IMO. Personally find it more exciting with Aus-WI, Eng-SA, Ind-Pak and the like. Up to you though.

Don't have that programme, could you send it if its possible.

 

[aussie]

I'm afraid that I disagree with you about that - unless you're talking purely as a keeper and ignoring the other contributions as a player - ie player and team man - or rating perceptions of talent above achievement.

Tallon was a keeper whose skills were without parallel, and who probably missed his best years as a player, and as a batsman in particular. He'll always be the romantic/potential selection as a pure keeper.

Grout would be right up there behind only Gilchrist, Healy, and Marsh. He was by all accounts extremely sure with the gloves, a genuine team man, and a very astute VC for the team. But Healy and Marsh, and obviously Gilchrist, were also those things, plus better batsmen.

Murdoch and Blackham are from a vastly different era, and while I rate them extremely highly and love the "what-ifs" of comparing them to modern greats (I don't think anyone here can accuse me of being a modernist - I rate Trumper and Grace ahead of Brian Lara!), IMO placing them above a Healy or Marsh is doing what I said earlier, putting perceived talent above the evidence of the modern player's achievements.

Marsh is right up there neck-and-neck with Healy. In my mind, one thing that hurts him compared with Healy and Gilchrist is that he never kept to a spinner the likes of Warne or MacGill. Still an absolute champ.

Hmmm..

 

[adharcric]

Don't have that programme, could you send it if its possible.

http://www.cricketweb.net/downloadscentre/freeware/virtualcricket.php

 

[Matt79]

Murdoch and Blackham are from a vastly different era, and while I rate them extremely highly and love the "what-ifs" of comparing them to modern greats (I don't think anyone here can accuse me of being a modernist - I rate Trumper and Grace ahead of Brian Lara!), IMO placing them above a Healy or Marsh is doing what I said earlier, putting perceived talent above the evidence of the modern player's achievements.

Hmmm..

No need to be coy aussie... you have a comment?