# 5 for 1966-85 World Test XI

[Poker Boy]

IMO, an allrounder has to be outstanding in one half of the game and competent in the other. I can't think of many(if any) that average 40+ with the bat and less than 30 with the ball. So IMO for allrounders you think Sobers (his batting average beats most specialists) and Imran(again his bowling average beats most specialists) Add to this Sobers' fielding and multple bowling skills and Imran's captaincy ability(he must be Pakistan's best-ever captain) and these are the two best all-rounders. Kallis would be third - again 50+ average, competent bowling record and excellent slip fielder.

 

[Matt79]

No way on earth he would've made the WI team with his rubbish spin bowling,but as a medium pacer,he might have been considered.But I think Imran Khan was a better allrounder than him.But then this is my opinion,as everyone has his own & not necessary that its same as yours.

Actually I'm pretty sure he was initially selected as a specialist spinner, who could bat a bit. His ability with the bat quickly outshone his fine spin bowling. He decided to switch to pace later because the Windies had quality spinners, but lacked a quality partner for Wes Hall.

 

[silentstriker]

Tbh I'm not really sure about that. Certainly he was a very fine batsman, but whether someone who averaged 2.32 wickets per match would be?

In the 1960's, he got about 3.3 wickets per match.

 

[BhupinderSingh]

Flower?

Better batsman than Sachin, Chappell, Hammond, etc?

Considering the strength of the team he played for,yes he is.He was really a very good allrounder(don't underate his keeping abilities).U don't find a second Flower in the history of cricket.

 

[BhupinderSingh]

Actually I'm pretty sure he was initially selected as a specialist spinner, who could bat a bit.

Majid Khan was also selected as a specialist bowler.Did anyone know that?And how good was he as a spinner?

 

[silentstriker]

Considering the strength of the team he played for,yes he is.He was really a very good allrounder(don't underate his keeping abilities).U don't find a second Flower in the history of cricket.

We are talking about batting.

 

[Matt79]

No way on earth he would've made the WI team with his rubbish spin bowling,but as a medium pacer,he might have been considered.But I think Imran Khan was a better allrounder than him.But then this is my opinion,as everyone has his own & not necessary that its same as yours.

Imran is a clear #2 in the allrounder stakes behind Sobers for me. I mark him down slightly (and only in comparison to Sobers) because his batting only improved as his effectiveness with the ball diminished - thus he went from being a bowling allrounder, to almost a batting allrounder. Still, its nickpicking about an awesome player.

Then, for me, its Miller a clear 3rd, then Botham, Hadlee, Dev, etc...

 

[Matt79]

Majid Khan was also selected as a specialist bowler.Did anyone know that?And how good was he as a spinner?

It's really very hard to have a sensible debate with you BP, because you make outlandish statements, and then when somebody questions them, you try change the criteria of what you've been saying. ie. BP: "Sobers wouldn't have made the WI team as a spinner". Me: "He did make the WI team as a spinner". BP: "Majid Khan was a bad spinner, so what does that prove about Sobers". Me:

 

[BhupinderSingh]

We are talking about batting.

Even his batting(av 52+ considering he played for a minnow) to deserve a place amongst top 5 batsmen ever,IMO atleast.

 

[silentstriker]

Even his batting(av 52+ considering he played for a minnow) to deserve a place amongst top 5 batsmen ever,IMO atleast.

The current Zimbabwe side and the Zimbabwe side that Flower played in are very different. Andy flower was a good batsman, but not anywhere near the top 30 all time.

 

[Poker Boy]

The current Zimbabwe side and the Zimbabwe side that Flower played in are very different. Andy flower was a good batsman, but not anywhere near the top 30 all time.

I'm surprised no-one mentions George Headley in the all-time Top 5 - he averages more than anyone bar Bradman and G Pollock and he had to carry a poor West Indies batting line-up..they said it was a case of "Headley out West Indies out" - and they called him the "Black Bradman".

 

[SA]

It's really very hard to have a sensible debate with you BP, because you make outlandish statements, and then when somebody questions them, you try change the criteria of what you've been saying. ie. BP: "Sobers wouldn't have made the WI team as a spinner". Me: "He did make the WI team as a spinner". BP: "Majid Khan was a bad spinner, so what does that prove about Sobers". Me:

Actually,Gary Sobers made the WI team initially as a spinner but his performance was not enough to make a team regular.If he had not shown excellent performace with batting later,u wouldn't have seen him playing more than 10 games.He was a fine medium pacer but hardly a frontline spinner.I'm not sure if some one has his recods seprately as a spinner & a medium but I think he would be averaging in late 20s as a medium pacer & late 30s/early 40s(which is very poor for someone like Gary Sobers who played on uncovered wickets) as a spinner.Majid Khan was selected in the team as a spinner(just like Sobers) but proved to be a rubish spinner despite some good performances at FC level & maintained his place in the side as a batsman.If I'm not wrong, this is also what BhupinderSingh wanted to say.

 

[aussie tragic]

I have voted Zaheer Abbas, although nobody else seems to like him, as he has had two voted in the last two polls. Why?

Actually, you're the only person who has voted for him in the three polls, but at least you're consistant and don't bow to peer pressure

 

[silentstriker]

I'm surprised no-one mentions George Headley in the all-time Top 5 - he averages more than anyone bar Bradman and G Pollock and he had to carry a poor West Indies batting line-up..they said it was a case of "Headley out West Indies out" - and they called him the "Black Bradman".

Actually I had George Headly in my all time second XI (along with Hammond, Hobbs, Lara).

 

[aussie tragic]

Actually Sobers would have made the WI team based on his bowling and fielding alone. So you could say that he was the only all rounder in history, if thats your criteria. I think he averaged around 26 with the ball in his prime years (about a decade in the middle).

Sobers rarely averaged < 26 in a series (only 3 times), never mind over a decade. The best period I could find is pretty awsome though:

Jan-1962 to Jan-1967

21 Tests, 1923 runs @ 62.03, 80 wkts @ 27.55, 40 catches.


EDIT: I just tweaked it for 30-Jan-1962 to 30-Jan-1967

23 Tests, 2162 runs @ 65.51, 89 wkts @ 27.29, 44 catches.

 

[silentstriker]

Sobers rarely averaged < 26 in a series (only 3 times), never mind over a decade. The best period I could find is pretty awsome though:

Jan-1962 to Jan-1967

21 Tests, 1923 runs @ 62.03, 80 wkts @ 27.55, 40 catches.

So he averaged four wickets per test @ 27.55.

And people say he wouldn't have made it with his bowling?

EDIT: Holy crap, I just got Firefox 2, it has a built in spell checker! Yay!

 

[PhoenixFire]

Actually, you're the only person who has voted for him in the three polls, but at least you're consistant and don't bow to peer pressure

And I'm proud of it. Abbas is the only player out of all of those to have scored 100 FC hundreds or more, that's got to be worthy of a mention.

 

[JBH001]

I know you wanted this change and got it done with this solid argument. i am voting for sobers.

but after doing so much ground work why haven't you voted yet?

Yeah, I have been pushing for it!

(kudos to you and Aussie Tragic for giving me a voice here)

Unfortunately I have not been able to take part in all this as much as I would have liked, as I have had many Uni assigments in the last 3 weeks, and at the moment and preparing and sitting end of semester exams (got one in an hour! yikes!).

I was holding back my vote for a day or two to see how things would pan out - imo, I am a little surprised at seeing Miandad running so close, if there was going to be close competition for Sobers I would have thought it would come from Border. IMO, Miandad was a true great - but his record vs WI is terrible (25 avg. I think) in the period. AB I think did a little better and could bowl too, and field, and was a better captain.

Anyway, a lot has been said about Sobers at #6 - but I think it should be remembered that if his peak bowling years were 62 - 67 during which time his wkts/test ratio was just under 4 (89/23) then that really is not good enough for a specialist bowler. The peak should be, at least, above 4 and career wise, at least, above 3. IMO on both counts Sobers fails. (Besides 3 of those years fall outside the period we are looking at)

I agree that it is a trade off in terms of batting strength vs bowling strength - but I think the batting line-up is strong enough as it! I mean look at the top #5! Would having another specialist batsman really improve matters so much? If one is needed, then put him in at #12 - so you have the option of playing an extra batsman if need be. Moreover, as I said, this team would have a very short tail, if at all - so the loss of batting strength is not very much compared to the gain in bowling potency, and, IMO, bowlers win matches. Especially important when playing against other best of XI's.

Right, I am off for my exam! Laters!

 

[Burgey]

Sobers. Without being flippant, he has to be there somewhere, and this is probably the best fit, allowing Imran or Botham (hopefully the former) to bat at 6.

 

[bagapath]

And I'm proud of it. Abbas is the only player out of all of those to have scored 100 FC hundreds or more, that's got to be worthy of a mention.

i agree. but this is a test team. he stands little chance against the other giants mentioned in the list. for that matter, even in an all time pakistan XI, for a middle order slot, he would have to fight very hard with mohammad yousuf and lose to miandad and inzy.