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Thread: "And then we moan why the Ozzies are #1"

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    Cricketer Of The Year Xuhaib's Avatar
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    "And then we moan why the Ozzies are #1"

    Yesterday watching Pakistan getting blown away on a lively track the first thing that crossed my mind was "why do we moan that Ozzies are #1", I am not talking about just Pakistan but I am referring to other teams as well.

    Its not like its the first time we have collapsed in these conditions that has been happening for decades now and its just not Pakistan who falter in these conditions India and Sri Lanka struggle aswell on these type of pitches. On the other hand teams like Eng, Nzl and SA they have problems with the turning tracks and they too have had this problem for years now, as soon as the pitch start turning they crumble.

    Generally it is said that if you work hard on your weaknesses eventually you will overcome it but to me it seems Australia is the only country that seems to be working on this theory thats why you will find most of the Australian batsmen to be competent against both pace and spin while the rest of the teams continue to struggle under alien conditions. Just preparing yourself for the new conditions before the start of the tour will not help you out the work needs to be done at the grass root level to make the player better equipped in handling the different conditions they will encounter when they travel abroad.

    I would like to conclude by saying that it is the failure of the respected cricket boards and their system that they are not able to prepare batsmen who can handle handle alien conditions despite being fully aware that has been their weakness for the last many years

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    SJS
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xuhaib
    Yesterday watching Pakistan getting blown away on a lively track the first thing that crossed my mind was "why do we moan that Ozzies are #1", I am not talking about just Pakistan but I am referring to other teams as well.

    Its not like its the first time we have collapsed in these conditions that has been happening for decades now and its just not Pakistan who falter in these conditions India and Sri Lanka struggle aswell on these type of pitches. On the other hand teams like Eng, Nzl and SA they have problems with the turning tracks and they too have had this problem for years now, as soon as the pitch start turning they crumble.

    Generally it is said that if you work hard on your weaknesses eventually you will overcome it but to me it seems Australia is the only country that seems to be working on this theory thats why you will find most of the Australian batsmen to be competent against both pace and spin while the rest of the teams continue to struggle under alien conditions. Just preparing yourself for the new conditions before the start of the tour will not help you out the work needs to be done at the grass root level to make the player better equipped in handling the different conditions they will encounter when they travel abroad.

    I would like to conclude by saying that it is the failure of the respected cricket boards and their system that they are not able to prepare batsmen who can handle handle alien conditions despite being fully aware that has been their weakness for the last many years
    You said it.

    Its not just Pakistan its all subcontinental teams.

    In fact, overall in the world, slightly helpful conditions (for the bowlers) seem to appear death traps to modern day batsmen. I wonder what they would do if they had to play Hadlee and Roberts and their ilk who would move the ball sideways on almost all tracks.

    The subcontinental teams appear even worse for they can not only not handle sideways movement but are also at a complete loss faced with the bouncier tracks.

    Of course there are some exceptional batsmen in these teams who have the game to cope but the majority havent.

    The Moment of Truth at cricinfo says most of what I was just writing for an article.

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    I guess one of the problems that cricket boards have is that they really can't expose their players to every type of pitch possible, especially at domestic level.

    For example, it just wouldn't happen that New Zealand players would be exposed to sub-continent type wickets or really pacy and bouncy wickets, just due to the climate in the country.

    That is possibly why Australia has done so well in the past - the domestic players are exposed to a wide variety of wickets (the pace of the WACA, the turn of the SCG e.t.c....)as a result of being a very big country, and as a result, over many 'climate zones'. This allows the players to hone their skills a lot better than many other countries.

    Maybe it's time that the cricket boards of the world utilise 'A' teams a bit better. Go on small tours against other A and 1st XI teams, hone skills on a variety of pitchers, and expose their fringe players to other conditions, to make them more competitive.

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    SJS
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Riddell
    I guess one of the problems that cricket boards have is that they really can't expose their players to every type of pitch possible, especially at domestic level.

    For example, it just wouldn't happen that New Zealand players would be exposed to sub-continent type wickets or really pacy and bouncy wickets, just due to the climate in the country.

    That is possibly why Australia has done so well in the past - the domestic players are exposed to a wide variety of wickets (the pace of the WACA, the turn of the SCG e.t.c....)as a result of being a very big country, and as a result, over many 'climate zones'. This allows the players to hone their skills a lot better than many other countries.

    Maybe it's time that the cricket boards of the world utilise 'A' teams a bit better. Go on small tours against other A and 1st XI teams, hone skills on a variety of pitchers, and expose their fringe players to other conditions, to make them more competitive.
    Its not climate that accounts for the batsman friendly wickets we have.

    It is not impossible to make pacier and bouncier wickets. Whats lacking is the will. Then again the much larger number of one day games we play in relation to tests means that we play on batsman friendly tracks even in some of the other countries since batting wickets in limited overs format are not unique to the sub continent.

    Even if some test wickets were friendlier to the faster bowlers, and we played more test matches and when we toured we did not have so many tours within sub-cintinental teams (untill the wickets changed) we could still have batsmen getting used to bouncier and pacier wickets.

    Until we do that we are going to struggle. Every one is blaming the curator when they should be asking why the batsmen show no gumption to stay at the wicket and fight.

    Whst have Boucher and Kemp got that we havent? The technique of course AND the fight. And thats because they do not have the luxury of the media, fans and authorities backing them up if they are bundled out for miserable scores and blame the wickets and curators for it.


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    U19 Captain Great Birtannia's Avatar
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    To be honest I don't think Australia adjust to the conditions as well as you are making out. We have had a lot of trouble with quality spin bowling (see Ponting's record in India) and of course our batsman struggled against the English seam attack on the pitches conducive to swing bowling. It's just not as evident with Australia as we rarely ever get bundled out for an embarassing total, there is nearly always that one last player to dig the team out of trouble.

    Rewind a few years back and when we were at our best we had a batting lineup of Hayden, Langer, Ponting, Martyn, S.Waugh, Lehmann, Gilchrist, undoubtedly 7 very good batsman with Hayden, Martyn and Gilchrist in career best touch. If the team loses quick wickets early and Hayden, Ponting and Martyn are back in the pavillion for not many you still have 4 batsman that are averaging 40-45+ to come to the rescue, the other teams just don't have that depth of talent to call on and that is what a lot of it comes down to.

    If you get rid of Jayasuriya, Sangakkara and Jayawardene cheaply SL are stuffed, Tendulkar, Dravid and Sehwag and India are gone, Khan, Youssuf and Inzy and it's good night Pakistan etc.etc.

    Australia had not won on the subcontinent for decades until Taylor lead Australia to victory in Pakistan and then Gilchrist a couple of years ago in India. Obviously the conditions play their part and it is difficult for teams from the spinning subcontinent wickets to come to Australia and play on fast bouncy wickets and vice versa but at the end of the day [/Gary Ayres] it comes down to the talent.

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    Virat Kohli (c) Jono's Avatar
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    And SA were excellent on a seaming wicket weren't they? They batted pathetically too, mind you not even as close to as Pakistan did, but SA were up against much less quality bowlers compared to Pakistan, who had Pollock and Ntini, and then Nel coming in at first change. Also has to do with Pakistan batsmen being idiots.

    Gul and Iftikhar are promising bowlers, but not even close to world class at this point, yet Gibbs, Smith, Boeta, AB de Villiers and even Kallis looked at sea. Kallis' technique made sure he didn't look foolish like Gibbs, but he still wasn't able to get going. Kemp and Boucher batted well, but in the end its a lot different playing against Yasir Arafat and Razzaq when the ball has gone older then Nel. Even Langeveldt is still a decent bowler who can move it around. ODI record isn't exactly horrible.

    I agree that Pakistan were awful, and a lot of their batsmen can't handle movement, but SA aren't just horrible on spinning pitches, they struggle against any sign of movement as well, just like most batsmen around the world today. Did you see them in their own backyard when the ball was doing something? Look at the first test, Stuart Clark made them look like under 14s. Its not just an Asian problem (like some people are trying to suggest), its a problem worldwide. Look at both the WI and India in the 4th test earlier this year, only Dravid could score any runs really. To my knowledge, WI aren't Asian.

    Give Pakistan Pollock, Ntini and Nel, give SA Gul, Iftkikhar and Arafat and I reckon the game may have been a little different. Hell chuck in Asif and Akhtar, Pakistan would have restricted SA to under 150, that's for sure.

    Look, I understand where you are coming from, but let's not just go the stereotypical route whereby 90% of batsmen who happen to have a bit more melanin in their skin and eat curry can't play bounce or the moving ball. Conditions like yesterday's are so foreign that its 90% of batsmen today... period.

    I wouldn't want to get in the way of the typical hyperbole that Asian batsmen are all at sea against good fast bowling though, a good rant is a good rant.
    Last edited by Jono; 28-10-2006 at 07:04 AM.
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    Virat Kohli (c) Jono's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Great Birtannia
    To be honest I don't think Australia adjust to the conditions as well as you are making out. We have had a lot of trouble with quality spin bowling (see Ponting's record in India) and of course our batsman struggled against the English seam attack on the pitches conducive to swing bowling. It's just not as evident with Australia as we rarely ever get bundled out for an embarassing total, there is nearly always that one last player to dig the team out of trouble.
    Yep, talking some sense there, that's for sure.

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    Virat Kohli (c) Jono's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SJS
    The Moment of Truth at cricinfo says most of what I was just writing for an article.
    Except that article doesn't back up your point, it proves its wrong. Its not just sub-continental players who can't handle bowler friendly conditions, its most batsmen today. So this whole Asian dilemma is a fair overreaction.

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    The Wheel is Forever silentstriker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Great Birtannia
    To be honest I don't think Australia adjust to the conditions as well as you are making out. We have had a lot of trouble with quality spin bowling (see Ponting's record in India) and of course our batsman struggled against the English seam attack on the pitches conducive to swing bowling.
    And yet they've won almost everywhere. They lose one series under Ponting, and won (not tied) everywhere else, including in India. I'd call that adjusting quite well.
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    Virat Kohli (c) Jono's Avatar
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    They didn't get turners in India except for the fourth test, and the second aided spin a bit but not overly. Surprisingly, they didn't win the second test (they may have had rain not interfered, or they may have lost, but they didn't bat well bar Martyn and Gillespie) and the fourth test they lost (yes it was a ridiculoust pitch, but still).

    First test was a flat pitch, third favoured seam bowling.

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    SJS
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Except that article doesn't back up your point, it proves its wrong. Its not just sub-continental players who can't handle bowler friendly conditions, its most batsmen today. So this whole Asian dilemma is a fair overreaction.
    I think there is a misunderstanding here.

    Yes ALL batsmen in the world are complainging and found wanting when the ball moves around latrally. The special thing of the sub continental players is that they are found wanting even if the ball is NOT moving sideways but JUST if the wicket has bounce.

    The fat averages of the batsmen of the world are somewhat due to poorer bowling as well as preponderence of batting tracks. But at leats South Africans, Australians etc are more adept at handling the short pitched deliveries. We in the sub-continent fail to do that even in the absence of a wicket with sideways movement. All Pakistani openers of the day (about half a dozen I should think), hitters like Afridi and Razzaq, strokeplayers like Sehwag, Yuvraj and Dhoni, veterans like Ganguly and so on. Supermen who never learnt to see the short pitched RISING ball early, go back and either leave it or hit it properly.

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    SJS
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    And SA were excellent on a seaming wicket weren't they? They batted pathetically too, mind you not even as close to as Pakistan did, but SA were up against much less quality bowlers compared to Pakistan, who had Pollock and Ntini, and then Nel coming in at first change. Also has to do with Pakistan batsmen being idiots.

    Gul and Iftikhar are promising bowlers, but not even close to world class at this point, yet Gibbs, Smith, Boeta, AB de Villiers and even Kallis looked at sea. Kallis' technique made sure he didn't look foolish like Gibbs, but he still wasn't able to get going. Kemp and Boucher batted well, but in the end its a lot different playing against Yasir Arafat and Razzaq when the ball has gone older then Nel. Even Langeveldt is still a decent bowler who can move it around. ODI record isn't exactly horrible.

    I agree that Pakistan were awful, and a lot of their batsmen can't handle movement, but SA aren't just horrible on spinning pitches, they struggle against any sign of movement as well, just like most batsmen around the world today. Did you see them in their own backyard when the ball was doing something? Look at the first test, Stuart Clark made them look like under 14s. Its not just an Asian problem (like some people are trying to suggest), its a problem worldwide. Look at both the WI and India in the 4th test earlier this year, only Dravid could score any runs really. To my knowledge, WI aren't Asian.

    Give Pakistan Pollock, Ntini and Nel, give SA Gul, Iftkikhar and Arafat and I reckon the game may have been a little different. Hell chuck in Asif and Akhtar, Pakistan would have restricted SA to under 150, that's for sure.

    Look, I understand where you are coming from, but let's not just go the stereotypical route whereby 90% of batsmen who happen to have a bit more melanin in their skin and eat curry can't play bounce or the moving ball. Conditions like yesterday's are so foreign that its 90% of batsmen today... period.

    I wouldn't want to get in the way of the typical hyperbole that Asian batsmen are all at sea against good fast bowling though, a good rant is a good rant.
    Read the post below as well as my article which is ALL about short pitched bowling. I have NEVER said continental players cant play fast bowling. There is a big difference between the too assertions.

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    International Vice-Captain open365's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Great Birtannia
    Rewind a few years back and when we were at our best we had a batting lineup of Hayden, Langer, Ponting, Martyn, S.Waugh, Lehmann, Gilchrist, undoubtedly 7 very good batsman with Hayden, Martyn and Gilchrist in career best touch. If the team loses quick wickets early and Hayden, Ponting and Martyn are back in the pavillion for not many you still have 4 batsman that are averaging 40-45+ to come to the rescue, the other teams just don't have that depth of talent to call on and that is what a lot of it comes down to.
    That batting line-up gives me shivers just thinking about it

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    International Coach PhoenixFire's Avatar
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    I hate to refer back to the Ashes, but the Aussies, for all of there strengths, are hopeless when the ball is swinging around. I'm not sure about at this current time, but certainly during the Ashes and the ODIs before them, they just couldn't adjust to Hoggard, Flintoff and Jones swining the ball both ways. This is remarkable that a team of 6 top class bats (Hayden, Langer, Ponting, Martyn and Gilchrist), couldn't really play swing all that well. I'd put it down to Buchanan being a lousy coach.

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    International Vice-Captain open365's Avatar
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    Sorry, but that doesn't wash with me.

    Australia have dominated world cricket for a while now, however bad at playing swing/quick bowling you think they are, the fact remains that they're
    (were maybe) streets ahead of everyone else.

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