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Thread: Why aren't South Africa a better side?

  1. #16
    Hall of Fame Member Goughy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pratyush
    Ntini's selection as the first black player during Cronje's time raised eye brows. So it was not all crystal clear back then though the problem has grown bigger since then particularly at lower rungs. Add Paul Adams and Omar Henry to the mix and I would say it is a bit simplistic to say Cronje era produced a better team just because of colour policy situation and had nothing to do with other aspects.
    Why look for complicated answers when the obvious and simplist ones are true.

    SA no longer put their best XI on the field. SA are not as good as they used to be.

    One statement follows the other.
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  2. #17
    Banned Pratters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goughy
    Why look for complicated answers when the obvious and simplist ones are true.
    Because

    1) Case can be made for colored players being favoured to an extent even in Cronje's time.
    2) There are other big factors which cannot be ignored. For instance..

    South Africa don't have Allan Donald now or a big replacement. Pollock is declining. South Africa don't have the all rounders they had before. The captain isn't black and yet he isn't half as good as Cronje was.

    I wouldn't put it down to 1 reason frankly.

  3. #18
    International Vice-Captain open365's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goughy
    Why look for complicated answers when the obvious and simplist ones are true.

    SA no longer put their best XI on the field. SA are not as good as they used to be.

    One statement follows the other.
    Ok, what would the side look like without these quota policies?

  4. #19
    Hall of Fame Member Goughy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by open365
    Ok, what would the side look like without these quota policies?
    Difficult to say due to the stunting of careers, massive number of Kolpak players leaving, guy like KP leaving, quality guys quitting the game due to lack of opportunities.

    The players available for selection are not the same as would be available without quotas. Remember every Domeatic team must be close to 50/50 (white/non-white)

    I will post a current non-quota side in a bit but you have to remeber the damage the quotas have done to a) the size of the talent pool and b) The development of young white players.

    Remember, if you are a Domestic Team and must have 5 non-white player and if all your available non-white batsman are poor then all 5 that play must be bowlers. No matter how good a white bowler is, he will not get a chance. The same can also be said for batsmen. It does happen.
    Last edited by Goughy; 15-10-2006 at 01:22 PM.


  5. #20
    Soutie Langeveldt's Avatar
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    Uh without quotas?

    1. Gibbs
    2. Smith
    3. Rudolph
    4. Kallis
    5. Prince
    6. Boucher
    7. Pollock
    8. Boje
    9. Nel
    10. Ntini
    11. Steyn

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    There are no Quota players in SA's 1st XI as far as I'm concerned, Quotas don't exist in the national side.. they do however as you travel further down the rungs, and they may affect the numbers of players coming through in the future..

    And when players like Albie Morkel and Adam Bacher play for South Africa, I don't think its a black/white issue!
    Last edited by Langeveldt; 15-10-2006 at 01:12 PM.
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  6. #21
    International Coach PhoenixFire's Avatar
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    Prince wouldn't be playing if there was no Quotas IMO.

  7. #22
    Banned Pratters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixFire
    Prince wouldn't be playing if there was no Quotas IMO.
    Prince since his return to international cricket:

    filtered 16 25 3 1069 139* 131 119 48.59 4 3 0

    Hardly bad eh? Also, his one day international average at 39 isn't crap.

  8. #23
    International Coach PhoenixFire's Avatar
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    I can think of a few white players that are better than Prince who aren't playing.

  9. #24
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Mr Mxyzptlk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goughy
    Prince- Not a young man anymore and not a Test quality player. His future is limited by new players coming through and his own lack of ability. He is only just an above average player on the SA domestic scene
    185 runs from his first 11 innings in Test cricket. He then scored 139* v Zimbabwe and has since notched tons against the West Indies, Australia and New Zealand. He averages 48.59 over his last 25 Test innings (ie since those first 11). Take out the 139* and he still averages 42.27 against teams other than Zimbabwe since that initial 12-innings run.

    Inconsistent, yes, but certainly not as bad a batsman as you make him out to be.
    Sreesanth said, "Next ball he was beaten and I said, 'is this the King Charles Lara? Who is this impostor, moving around nervously? I should have kept my mouth shut for the next ball - mind you, it was a length ball - Lara just pulled it over the church beyond the boundary! He is a true legend."


  10. #25
    Soutie Langeveldt's Avatar
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    The latest Titans side, with from what I can tell 3-4 non white players (Bodi, Reddy, Thomas, Behardien?).. Not five

    wicket-keeper HG Kuhn c & b Benkenstein 89 125 104 10 1 85.57
    GH Bodi c & b AM Amla 71 105 73 10 1 97.26
    F du Plessis c Watson b Abdullah 40 53 42 3 0 95.23
    JA Morkel run out (wicket-keeperBrown/Abdullah) 57 42 42 4 4 135.71
    captain G Dros c Klusener b Louw 2 6 3 0 0 66.66
    JG Myburgh c HM Amla b Louw 5 9 4 0 0 125.00
    BL Reddy c Govender b Louw 1 8 2 0 0 50.00
    P de Bruyn not out 1 6 2 0 0 50.00
    F Behardien not out 2 3 2 0 0 100.00
    Extras (lb 12, w 9, nb 4) 25

    Total (7 wickets; 45 overs; 178 mins) 293

    Did not bat AC Thomas, DW Steyn

  11. #26
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Mr Mxyzptlk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pratyush
    Because

    1) Case can be made for colored players being favoured to an extent even in Cronje's time.
    The point is, though, that they weren't favoured as strongly as they are now.

  12. #27
    Banned Pratters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Mxyzptlk
    The point is, though, that they weren't favoured as strongly as they are now.
    Yeah that is the point Goughy is making but my point was even if we take that to be true, if a couple of players more are preferred because of quotas, how can Goughy come to such a simplistic answer - quotas and disregard other factors given the other factors are so large.

  13. #28
    Banned Pratters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixFire
    I can think of a few white players that are better than Prince who aren't playing.
    Firstly that is disputable. I can think players x,y, z are better in a country based on stats or what I have seen but there is no way of proving regarding international level. Secondly, Prince deserved his chance after FC run beginning from 2003/04 and hasn't exactly done much wrong after being given a chance. So please cut the slack.

  14. #29
    Banned sideshowtim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goughy
    Yep,

    And its not just in cricket. Its all previously 'white' sports but not 'black' sports such as soccer. Rugby is the other big one where quotas are hotly debated. They are also bizzare situations in minority sports where there very few black participants like sailing crews etc that still have quotas.
    And to think this country is going to be hosting the soccer World Cup in 2010...FIFA has tried as hard as any other organisation to eradicate racism and here we are in South Africa where they have to have a certain amount of players of a certain colour. Terrible.

  15. #30
    Soutie Langeveldt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sideshowtim
    And to think this country is going to be hosting the soccer World Cup in 2010...FIFA has tried as hard as any other organisation to eradicate racism and here we are in South Africa where they have to have a certain amount of players of a certain colour. Terrible.
    In football there are no quotas, because 90% of football players in SA are black

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