Poll: Skipper for 1986 - 2005 XI

[silentstriker]

But SS, what is the real reason behind this whole "going by win%" thing?

Waits for SS' head to explode....

 

[Fusion]

And if I have to say this again, my head will explode: I only look at winning percentage when judging captains, as there are no other individual statistics for captaincy, so otherwise it would be completely subjective.

There is nothing wrong with being subjective and analyzing other factors besides winning percentage when analyzing such a position. For example, if you were a GM of a baseball, football, basketball team in U.S, you wouldn't be considered a very good GM if ALL you analyzed was the win % when hiring a coach. You must be able to take into account the quality of players in the team, the quality of their opponents, the strenght of a team's schedule, his motivation skills, his analytical skills etc. These same factors can apply to the Captain's role in cricket. I think you originally started on this road due to the fact that people were bashing Ponting and ignoring his overall win record. Well you had a legitimate point that the guy is a winner. But now you've gone to the extreme and are guilty of doing what the other side was doing: focusing on one thing while ignoring other various factors.

 

[haroon510]

imran. hasn't seen a good skiper like him for a while now

 

[silentstriker]

There is nothing wrong with being subjective and analyzing other factors besides winning percentage when analyzing such a position. For example, if you were a GM of a baseball, football, basketball team in U.S, you wouldn't be considered a very good GM if ALL you analyzed was the win % when hiring a coach. You must be able to take into account the quality of players in the team, the quality of their opponents, the strenght of a team's schedule, his motivation skills, his analytical skills etc. These same factors can apply to the Captain's role in cricket. I think you originally started on this road due to the fact that people were bashing Ponting and ignoring his overall win record. Well you had a legitimate point that the guy is a winner. But now you've gone to the extreme and are guilty of doing what the other side was doing: focusing on one thing while ignoring other various factors.

If I was a GM for a football team in the NFL, I'd always hire the guy with the best winning %. If you look at it historically, its almost always the right decision, unless I found extenuating circumstances, or if I was hiring a first time coach.

 

[Perm]

Ponting

 

[Neil Pickup]

Lara. A) I want to be different, and B) I'd rather he skippered than Punter.

 

[Jono]

Imran

 

[Fusion]

Lara. A) I want to be different

Or...you could be right and vote for Imran!

 

[adharcric]

Why is that? Or rather, which sport?

And if I have to say this again, my head will explode: I only look at winning percentage when judging captains, as there are no other individual statistics for captaincy, so otherwise it would be completely subjective. For judging players at other positions, you can look at stats, and then use your judgement when comparing players with similar stats.

Thats why I judge Lara to be better than Ponting, even though Ponting has better stats. It's because they are similar enough, for other criteria to come into play.

I could captain Australia and they'd still keep winning. Would you call me one of the best captains in the world then?

 

[Alysum]

none of them really stand out...

 

[LongHopCassidy]

It would've been much more interesting if it was between Waugh and Imran.

 

[GIMH]

If I was a GM for a football team in the NFL, I'd always hire the guy with the best winning %. If you look at it historically, its almost always the right decision, unless I found extenuating circumstances, or if I was hiring a first time coach.

Come on SS, get a grip.

Let's say that you, and I have both been made captains of cricket teams to tour the world.

My team will include Bradman, Gavaskar, Sobers, Warne, Muralitharan, McGrath and other assorted greats

Your team will include Rob Key, Greme Hick, Ajit Agarkar, Jason Gillespie circa 2005, Mick Lewis and Ian Blackwell

My team play at home to Bangladesh, West Indies and away to England and Zimbabwe

Your team play at home to Australia and England, and awad away to the same sides.

My team beat bangladesh, West Indies and Zimbabwe. In England Bradman hurts himself in the warm-up, but the physio assures me he'll be fit for day two. I win the toss and bat and get absolutely destroyed, and go on to lose the series.

Your team pulls of heroic victories at home to Oz and England, but are narrowly beaten by both away from home.

My win percentage is 75%. Yours is 50%. WHo has done the better job?

 

[pietersenrocks]

I have voted for Imran but I think Lloyd is the best

 

[pietersenrocks]

Come on SS, get a grip.

Let's say that you, and I have both been made captains of cricket teams to tour the world.

My team will include Bradman, Gavaskar, Sobers, Warne, Muralitharan, McGrath and other assorted greats

Your team will include Rob Key, Greme Hick, Ajit Agarkar, Jason Gillespie circa 2005, Mick Lewis and Ian Blackwell

My team play at home to Bangladesh, West Indies and away to England and Zimbabwe

Your team play at home to Australia and England, and awad away to the same sides.

My team beat bangladesh, West Indies and Zimbabwe. In England Bradman hurts himself in the warm-up, but the physio assures me he'll be fit for day two. I win the toss and bat and get absolutely destroyed, and go on to lose the series.

Your team pulls of heroic victories at home to Oz and England, but are narrowly beaten by both away from home.

My win percentage is 75%. Yours is 50%. WHo has done the better job?

Graeme Hick,Ajit Agarkar and Jason Gillespie are all good players.

 

[silentstriker]

Let's say that you, and I have both been made captains of cricket teams to tour the world.

My team will include Bradman, Gavaskar, Sobers, Warne, Muralitharan, McGrath and other assorted greats

Your team will include Rob Key, Greme Hick, Ajit Agarkar, Jason Gillespie circa 2005, Mick Lewis and Ian Blackwell

My team play at home to Bangladesh, West Indies and away to England and Zimbabwe

Your team play at home to Australia and England, and awad away to the same sides.

My team beat bangladesh, West Indies and Zimbabwe. In England Bradman hurts himself in the warm-up, but the physio assures me he'll be fit for day two. I win the toss and bat and get absolutely destroyed, and go on to lose the series.

Your team pulls of heroic victories at home to Oz and England, but are narrowly beaten by both away from home.

My win percentage is 75%. Yours is 50%. WHo has done the better job?

The best way to find that out is to reverse the roles and go at it again, and then compare the results.

But in the meantime, you have a better team and you are superior.

Now this does sound odd, I admit, but the issue here is that it is not possible to separate out the performance of the team from the performance of a captain. It just isn't. So you have to go by the only stat that you can -- the team win %.

 

[Fratboy]

The best way to find that out is to reverse the roles and go at it again, and then compare the results.

But in the meantime, you have a better team and you are superior.

Now this does sound odd, I admit, but the issue here is that it is not possible to separate out the performance of the team from the performance of a captain. It just isn't. So you have to go by the only stat that you can -- the team win %.

Which makes GeraintIsMyHero the better captain, correct ?

 

[silentstriker]

Which makes GeraintIsMyHero the better captain, correct ?

Yes.

 

[bagapath]

This has been bothering me for some time. But it is my honest opinion that Imran's charisma and ability as a champion cricketer have added an unseen but actually irrelevant dimension to his captaincy.

He was a good skipper. He united a team known for lacking in team spirit. He made them shed colonial mindset. He taught them to take on the best team in the world. He stopped his team from losing frequently.

But, hold on. Did not Saurav Ganguly do this to India?

In 48 matches Imran won 14 tests with a superb bowling attack. He drew two series with Windies. Won in India. Won world cup.

Ganguly, in same number of tests won 21 matches. With an inferior bowling attack. Won a home series against aussies. Drew with them in an away series. Won in Pakistan. Led to the final of World cup.

Who is the better skipper?

The point is Imran did it in style what all good captains do. Nothing more. But Indians especially remember getting repeatedly thrashed in one-dayers by his team and as a result concede that he was the greatest captain. Actually, even in his times Imran was not necessarily the clear winner in the captaincy race. Border was equally good.

That is why I am not able to stomach this "Imran was the greatest captain" argument.

 

[nightprowler10]

This has been bothering me for some time. But it is my honest opinion that Imran's charisma and ability as a champion cricketer have added an unseen but actually irrelevant dimension to his captaincy.

He was a good skipper. He united a team known for lacking in team spirit. He made them shed colonial mindset. He taught them to take on the best team in the world. He stopped his team from losing frequently.

But, hold on. Did not Saurav Ganguly do this to India?

In 48 matches Imran won 14 tests with a superb bowling attack. He drew two series with Windies. Won in India. Won world cup.

Ganguly, in same number of tests won 21 matches. With an inferior bowling attack. Won a home series against aussies. Drew with them in an away series. Won in Pakistan. Led to the final of World cup.

Who is the better skipper?

The point is Imran did it in style what all good captains do. Nothing more. But Indians especially remember getting repeatedly thrashed in one-dayers by his team and as a result concede that he was the greatest captain. Actually, even in his times Imran was not necessarily the clear winner in the captaincy race. Border was equally good.

That is why I am not able to stomach this "Imran was the greatest captain" argument.

Good post. I feel that his captaincy record is good, not fantastic. But the fact he won the World Cup (and many Pakistanis don't feel that Pakistan won it, they say Imran won it) really puts him over the top.

 

[shankar]

Now this does sound odd, I admit, but the issue here is that it is not possible to separate out the performance of the team from the performance of a captain. It just isn't. So you have to go by the only stat that you can -- the team win %.

The reason for using objective statistics over our personal judgements, which are subjective, is to eliminate conscious/unconscious bias. However, these objective criterion must be relevant to what is being judged. It doesnt take much thinking to realise that a captain in charge of a great team can make poor decisions and yet have a great win %. So win % although an objective criterion is quite a poor one to judge captaincy skill - So poor that even a subjective criterion such as personal opinion of the player based on individual opinion of the merit of his captaincy moves, is better.