Steve Harmison v Brett Lee

[GIMH]

What? I specifically asked for an English opinion, as that was the general feeling I got. I did not say it was accurate, it just seemed like it was true. I don't claim to be an expert on the limey fans, mine was just an honest inquiry. You don't think so, and thats fair.

Don't call us limeys

Maybe I took you out of context. I'm sure, though, that it's not the first time I've read you stating your views on how highly we regard the Ashes - but I apologise if you weren't trying to make a sweeping statement

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

I was questioning exactly how good he has been, since he is still at 20 after that year.

And the ratings are actually set up so that the most recent year has the greatest effect...

Well, err, I posted the record above...

I'm sure if he keeps taking 4.5 wickets a test and averaging mid 20s he'll move above 20. It's relatively difficult to move up to the top 10 in the space of 12 months though, unless your performances are absolutely unstoppable. Look at Mike Hussey, for instance.

 

[UncleTheOne]

You know what this thread is missing?

A frothing at the mouth with indignation Richard decrying Harmison and his achievements. Bring back Corky I say!

....and the might of Mark Ealham and Usman Afzaal!!! Mind you Afzaal is still a joy to watch.

 

[aussie]

Not intending to have a go at anyone, and there are many exceptions, but I'm a bit amazed by how many English cricket fans you see on here who don't seem to have seen or even heard about any cricket in recent times outside of the Ashes and the games England play. We didn't get the English subcontinent tours on TV here, but most Australian cricket fans would still at least be aware of who the English players who performed well and so on are.

Judging Lee's current form on the Ashes would be like totally writing off Ian Bell as an international batsmen based on his Ashes series. He has in fact played 12 test matches and 20+ ODIs since then, and surely anyone who even read match reports from the home summer would know that he bowled well and that The Oval is not entirely representative of his range of abilities. Also seen English people on here recently suggesting Hayden won't be an issue in the Ashes or even that he should be dropped, despite the fact that he's scored 5 centuries in the last year and averaged 73 in the home summer.

simple reason for that, lack of Sky Sports

 

[silentstriker]

Don't call us limeys

Wow, you're the first person to be offended by 'limey'. I didn't think you guys found it offensive (I thought it was like calling us 'Yanks').

 

[aussie]

I agree with you Sean, but let's be honest, there are plenty of Aussies on here who give Bell no chance of scoring any runs down under, ignoring the fact that he scored three centuries in three this summer, and that his one-day form was nothing short of excellent.

Yea Belly scored 3 consecutive tons but it must be said it was againts a very weakned Pakistan attack that was bowling poorly & when he came into bat he had things easy & has good batsmen do he really cashed in. But in the final test @ the Oval when Asif returned & Kaneria finally got to bowl to England middle -order when they were under a bit of pressure it just brought back memories of the ashes. So even though i rate him highly i still have doubts about how he will play McGrath/Lee & Warne (especially).

Lee on the other hand has gone from strength to strenght since the ashes, unlike the ashes where he bowled poor spells i.e at the Oval, edgbaston 1st innings, TB 1st innings, he has been very consistent with his lines & lenghts, the way he uses the bouncer is a one of the biggest improvements.

I have seen every test both Bell & Lee have played since the Ashes & i have a lot more confidence in Lee causing England's batsmen real problems this winter than Bell scoring big runs.

 

[tooextracool]

Id probably just pick Lee over Harmison. Neither particularly impress me, but in terms of fitness Lee is clearly fitter, hes amongst a select few over a very long time that bowls at over 90 mph consistently without getting injured repeatedly. Harmison for me is capable of bowling it at over 90 mph on his day, but by and large hes always bowling in the low-mid 80s. Without pace Harmison is clearly rubbish, because he doesnt have any other variations to get anything out of a pitch.

 

[tooextracool]

Given the trend over the last 20 months or so, I'd expect Lee to leave Harmison miles behind. You couldn't honestly say that Harmy was good for a couple of years It was about 6 months really, followed by two years of what could generously be described as mediocrity, apart from 2 good innings (Lords 1 in 2005 & OT 1 in 2006). It was obvious that Lee was showing signs of progress in the Ashes, even if his series average wasn't pretty, and his subsequent performances against SA have confirmed that he's on the up. Harmy may be extremely dangerous when he gets it right, but it's incredibly rare, and he's incredibly lucky to be an automatic pick. If he's a non-event again this winter then I'd call it a day. If he proves me wrong then iI'll be delighted to admit it.

I would seriously question his attitude. Hes been playing for England for 4 years now. Even since his golden run in 04, how much has he improved since? Hes added no new variations- hes still incapable of swing, conventional or reverse. His slower ball is hardly anything that deserves to be mentioned. He doesnt bowl cutters or do anything different. More often than not hes bowling below the pace he can actually bowl at, which speaks volumes about his fitness levels. And his accuracy if anything is worse than it used to be. Just look at how much further the other 4 pace bowlers in the England side have come since then- Flintoff, Hoggard, Jones and Anderson are all infinitely better than they were back then.
For me it seems to be that he thinks that by bowling the way he did for a couple of series in 2004 hed be able to be successful in whatever conditions he bowls in all his career, and thats clearly not going to be the case.

 

[tooextracool]

General consensus seems to be that harmison is more talented but that Brett lee is more...reliable.

Is he really? I think the word 'gifted' would be more suitable. Not too many bowlers are born 6'6 inches tall and can get bounce off most surfaces.

 

[GIMH]

Wow, you're the first person to be offended by 'limey'. I didn't think you guys found it offensive (I thought it was like calling us 'Yanks').

LOL it doesn't offend me really, but I was in work, and it was Saturday, and Tranmere were getting beaten, so I was feeling a little bad-tempered, nevermind, apologies.

 

[marc71178]

Not too many bowlers are born 6'6 inches tall

I pity the mother of anyone born 6 foot 6!!!

 

[Jono]

LOL Marc

 

[wpdavid]

I would seriously question his attitude (Harmison) ....

Me too. Beyond the reasons you cited, his public pronouncements give the game away every time. He becoming almost Caddickesque when it comes to excuses and justifying the lack of returns we're getting from him. There just doesn't seem to be the desire to improve, and there's still a lot of self-pity about his lot in the world. A while back I suggested that he's spent most of his professional career being picked on potential rather than performance - at county level as well as international - which shows in what we're seeing from him most of the time. That didn't go down well with our resident budgie, but I see no reason to change my mind.

 

[PhoenixFire]

To the person who said that Harmison should learn swing and reverse swing, you are talking nonsense. Harmison simply cannot reverse it, because of his height, the trajectory he hits the with, and other factors. I don't rate him particualy highly, however when the condidtions are right, he can be lethal.

 

[tooextracool]

To the person who said that Harmison should learn swing and reverse swing, you are talking nonsense. Harmison simply cannot reverse it, because of his height, the trajectory he hits the with, and other factors. I don't rate him particualy highly, however when the condidtions are right, he can be lethal.

Really? Glenn Mcgrath has successfully used reverse swing as well as conventional swing on many many occasions and he is just as tall as Harmison. The conditions are right for him about once every 6-7 games, which really isnt enough.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Yeah, there's no reason why tall bowlers can't reverse it. Obviously they might not reverse it to the same degree as a Simon Jones, but it can certainly be done. McGrath ran through New Zealand in the first test over there in 2005 with reverse swing. Took the last 6 wickets for around 20.

 

[magsi23]

Lee has been pretty poor really since his first 7 Tests when he had incredible figures, he averages over 35 with the ball since then.

Harmison is clearly the better Test bowler. Lee the better bowler in the mickey mouse stuff.

And Harmison is been in best form? except old trafford he has been prety ordinary the whole year

 

[LongHopCassidy]

I pity the mother of anyone born 6 foot 6!!!

Skull.