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Thread: Is Adam Gilchrist an overrated test batsman ?

  1. #16
    International Captain Slow Love™'s Avatar
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    I think he's probably past his best (and I'd have no problem being proven wrong on this) and has suffered a couple of slumps, but overrated seems to have various meanings, and I think there's an insinuation in this that somehow Gilchrist isn't equipped to perform in difficult, testing situations, or against decent attacks.

    If anything I feel that his efforts in the late order, often masking some inconsistency in the middle order, were a tad underrated, as was his innings against Bangladesh when Australia courted international humiliation. When his batting drops off, we suddenly look a dramatically weaker team.
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  2. #17
    Englishman BoyBrumby's Avatar
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    No. Next question?

    To amplify slightly, I do concur with SL that he may be slightly over the top (he is 35 after all & keeping is a very physical job) but the man has completely redifined the keeper's role. We'll never again see specialist keepers a la Bob Taylor who're not too flash with willow in hand.

    What lifts him above Flower & Sanga for me is the quality of his keeping. The fact that he's been such a brutally (& gloriously) effective batter tends to make people overlook the fact that he's probably been the best keeper in the world for the majority of his career too.
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  3. #18
    Hall of Fame Member FaaipDeOiad's Avatar
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    Yeah, I think Gilchrist is severely underrated as a glovesman. If you compare him to the other quality batsmen who have also kept during his career like Sangakkara, Flower and Stewart, Gilchrist is a far better all-round keeper than all of them. He's kept with distinction to Warne for many years, has the best dismissal per test rate of any keeper in test history, and most notably has managed to replace one of the finest pure keepers Australia has ever produced in Healy without a major dropping off in keeping standards.

    And also, Ashes aside (where he had a poor run in both disciplines), Gilchrist has a tendancy to step up with the gloves when he's not performing at his best with the bat. Last summer following his terrible Ashes series he was pretty much flawless with the gloves. Quite simply, even if he averaged 30 with the bat for the rest of his career he'd still be easily worth his spot.
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  4. #19
    International Regular Beleg's Avatar
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    Gilchrist is the most dangerous batsman in the Australian team. This guy steps up when the chips are down and that's what matters most.


  5. #20
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    no.

  6. #21
    International Coach PhoenixFire's Avatar
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    Anyone who calls Adam Gilchrist the best Keeper Batsman of all time, either forgets Les Ames, or severely underates him, because however good Gilchirst is/was, he won't ever be as good as Ames was.

  7. #22
    International Debutant aussie tragic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixFire
    Anyone who calls Adam Gilchrist the best Keeper Batsman of all time, either forgets Les Ames, or severely underates him, because however good Gilchirst is/was, he won't ever be as good as Ames was.

    I guess I must "severely undrate" Ames as Gilchrist has a much higher batting average and a much higher dismissals per test than Ames (without stats to back it up, I'd be pretty surprised if Ames was even close to Gilly's SR).

    Fact is, Gilly is the prime reason Australia dominates as what other team has the luxary of batting their most agressive batsman at # 7.

  8. #23
    International Coach PhoenixFire's Avatar
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    Strike Rate isn't everything you know. I doubt Bradman has as a high as strike rate as Gilchrist, but you would never call him better, would you? And Shane Warne is the reason that the Aussies have dominated, not Gilchrist.

  9. #24
    Hall of Fame Member FaaipDeOiad's Avatar
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    I've heard of Les Ames, and there's no doubt he was a very fine keeper-batsman, but I can't see for the life of me how you're making the judgement that Ames is so clearly better than Gilchrist that anyone who doesn't think so must not have heard of him. Ames averaged a fair chunk less with the bat, made fewer big scores, and his first class record is fairly similar. Let's keep in mind also that, like Gilchrist, Ames played in an era of many high scores and many batsmen with far higher averages than him. Averaging 40 in the 1930s was a unique feat for a keeper, but it was nothing special as far as most batsmen go. Gilchrist's average of a bit under 50 now certainly makes him quite good even ignoring the strike-rate, and he did average in excess of 60 for a fair chunk of his career.

    As a batsman, there's certainly no reason to believe Ames was better than Gilchrist. Comparable perhaps, except in terms of destructiveness, but not clearly better. As a keeper it's pretty hard to judge across a 60 year gap, but Gilchrist isn't exactly poor.

  10. #25
    International Debutant aussie tragic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixFire
    Strike Rate isn't everything you know. I doubt Bradman has as a high as strike rate as Gilchrist, but you would never call him better, would you? And Shane Warne is the reason that the Aussies have dominated, not Gilchrist.
    Then how come Aussie kept winning when Warne was out for a year and how come they lost the Ashes when Gilly finally ran into some bad form (and Warne had one of his best series ever)

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by aussie
    His impact on the game as a wicket-keeper batsman is far better than either of the two & any wicket-keeper batsman over the course of test history. If i were to pick a world XI, Gilly biggest challenger for the spot would be Les Ames IMO.

    But to answer your question no i don't think Gilchrist is over-rated, yes in the ashes he came up againts some top quality bowlers & failed but if you are going to use that argument to under-mine all the he has achieved since 1999 you might as well say Ponting, Dravid & Kallis have been over-rated since they have faced the same average bowlers on the same flat pitches except for Australia's & have made a lot of runs.

    If International bowling attacks & pitches since 1999 would have been all-round very good i don't believe Gilchrist would have averaged 50+, but i think he would have been good enough to adapt & would have definately averaged more than 40+.
    Dravid scored runs against the SA attack of the 90s-pollock, donald and klusener as well as the Ambrose, Walsh and Bishop trio
    Ponting similarly did the same.
    Gilchrist on the other hand struggled in India, struggled against England in the last Ashes and bar one inning struggled in SL as well. Its hard to think of any other attacks of note that he faced in his career.
    to tell someone that they're wrong to consider him overrated is beyond me, because theres certainly credible evidence in that regard.
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  12. #27
    International Coach PhoenixFire's Avatar
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    Maybe I should have rephrased my earlier post. In my opinion, I cannot understand how anbody can rate Gilchrist as a better Wicket Keeper batsman than Ames. Thats just my opinion and not fact.

  13. #28
    International Coach tooextracool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixFire
    Anyone who calls Adam Gilchrist the best Keeper Batsman of all time, either forgets Les Ames, or severely underates him, because however good Gilchirst is/was, he won't ever be as good as Ames was.
    i think id take andy flower thank you very much....

  14. #29
    Hall of Fame Member grecian's Avatar
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    On the link you gave to Cricinfo, Ames' profile, it says that at the time, many people didn't think Ames was the best Keeper at the time, and was picked for his batting. Its nice to know the same arguments were being made 70 years ago, that are now.
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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by FaaipDeOiad
    Yeah, I think Gilchrist is severely underrated as a glovesman. If you compare him to the other quality batsmen who have also kept during his career like Sangakkara, Flower and Stewart, Gilchrist is a far better all-round keeper than all of them. He's kept with distinction to Warne for many years, has the best dismissal per test rate of any keeper in test history, and most notably has managed to replace one of the finest pure keepers Australia has ever produced in Healy without a major dropping off in keeping standards.
    Dismissals per Test mean nothing other than the attack you're 'keeping to is quality and generally pretty accurate.

    It begs the question though, is it a better reflection of a gloveman that he keeps wicket to some of the most consistent bowlers in the world, or to some of the most erratic? Hard to say IMO, but the Sangakkara doesn't get nearly enough credit as a gloveman IMO.
    Last edited by Mr Mxyzptlk; 09-09-2006 at 03:09 PM.
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