England's ideal ODI squad

[tooextracool]

Really? He has played more ODIs than his highest score. A top score of 30 out of 33 ODIs is not at all impressive for me. In fact its pretty **** poor. He contributes on average less than 9 runs an ODI.

Simply, its not good enough and looking at his domestic record it should have been clear that that would always been the case.

i can hardly see how someone whos batted 15 out of his 21 innings at no 8 and below can be expected to score 50s. thered be a select few in the world who have done that in their entire careers in that position.

 

[Goughy]

i can hardly see how someone whos batted 15 out of his 21 innings at no 8 and below can be expected to score 50s. thered be a select few in the world who have done that in their entire careers in that position.

Well, in a round about way, thats kind of my point. What is a keeper doing batting at #8 in an ODI? Begs the question why is he playing and the fact that the team could be better served by playing someone capable of batting higher.

You can say he is batting at 8 and not given chances but the reason he bats 8 is that he aint that good.

Compare him to where other keepers bat and the flexibility they offer thier sides. Eg Dhoni, Akmal, Gilchrist, Boucher.

In fact batting at 8 put Read along side guys like Hogg, Vaas, Pollock etc that are picked mainly for their bowling but also bat around the 8 position.

If he is only capable of batting 8 for a weak England team then he should not be playing.

BTW, answer to your statement about scoring 50s at 8 well Brett Lee did it at 9 and he has 3 scores (in about 30 innings) at #9 that are better than Reads highest score.

As good as Brett Lee is, I want my keeper to be a better bat than him

EDIT-

thered be a select few in the world who have done that in their entire careers in that position.

Well just taking a few recent games for a few countries there are a number of players who have done just that and many multiple times. I want to stress again that this was a small look at the players of a few recent ODIs

Guys from the small sample that have scored 50s at #8
Hogg
Vaas
Lee
Pollock
Agarkar
Boucher
Razzaq
Afridi
Dhoni
Pathan
there are probably many more but I just looked a few games

 

[Anna]

Blackwell was bowling on Sunday, wooooo but the word from the horse's mouth is that it's highly unlikely that he'll make the Champions Trophy

 

[tooextracool]

Well, in a round about way, thats kind of my point. What is a keeper doing batting at #8 in an ODI? Begs the question why is he playing and the fact that the team could be better served by playing someone capable of batting higher.

You can say he is batting at 8 and not given chances but the reason he bats 8 is that he aint that good.

Compare him to where other keepers bat and the flexibility they offer thier sides. Eg Dhoni, Akmal, Gilchrist, Boucher.

In fact batting at 8 put Read along side guys like Hogg, Vaas, Pollock etc that are picked mainly for their bowling but also bat around the 8 position.

If he is only capable of batting 8 for a weak England team then he should not be playing.

BTW, answer to your statement about scoring 50s at 8 well Brett Lee did it at 9 and he has 3 scores (in about 30 innings) at #9 that are better than Reads highest score.

As good as Brett Lee is, I want my keeper to be a better bat than him

EDIT-
Well just taking a few recent games for a few countries there are a number of players who have done just that and many multiple times. I want to stress again that this was a small look at the players of a few recent ODIs

Guys from the small sample that have scored 50s at #8
Hogg
Vaas
Lee
Pollock
Agarkar
Boucher
Razzaq
Afridi
Dhoni
Pathan
there are probably many more but I just looked a few games

i think without looking in detail, the thing that strikes me is how many times has he come in at 7 or 8 and had the chance to score a 50? For me almost everytime hes come in, its almost the end of the innings and hes had to slog around and score quick runs. Id say that only on a couple of occasions has he really had the time to settle down and score a 50 since his return to the side in 2003. Theres certainly a lot more players who have scored 50s @ 8 than i had initially thought, but im certain its because they've had more opportunities to do so.
Why is read picked if he is to bat at 8? Well ive long said that i would be interested in the idea of having Read pinch hit occasionally at 3(on flatter wickets) and that would give him the opportunity to get some time in. However the reason he bats at 8 is because they believe that he is one of the better players at finishing off an innings, and with Collingwood batting up the order there really is no one else in this England side capable of finishing off an innings if they havent already had time in the middle. For me the fact that he scores 100s in FC cricket combined with the fact that his game is actually more suited to ODIs than most would suggest than hes capable of scoring big runs in ODIs.

 

[marc71178]

Really? He has played more ODIs than his highest score. A top score of 30 out of 33 ODIs is not at all impressive for me. In fact its pretty **** poor. He contributes on average less than 9 runs an ODI.

Simply, its not good enough and looking at his domestic record it should have been clear that that would always been the case.

Hmm, so Chris Read is now a poor ODI batsman then?

Mind you, you seem to think that he is in the team to score runs first and foremost...

 

[Goughy]

Hmm, so Chris Read is now a poor ODI batsman then?

As have been detailed in previous posts, he bats low down for his county, low down for England, has an average domestic One Day record and has a top score of 30 in 33 ODIs.

So yes, saying all that Id still take him over Foster and Jones. I have him behind Pothas and Prior

Your turn, make the arguement that he isnt.

 

[marc71178]

Guys from the small sample that have scored 50s at #8
Hogg
Vaas
Lee
Pollock
Agarkar
Boucher
Razzaq
Afridi
Dhoni
Pathan

Hogg - 1 50 in 31 knocks
Vaas - 1 50 in 89 knocks
Lee - 1 50 in 9 knocks
Pollock - 4 50s in 63 knocks (but note that he's batted more at 7 or above than at 8)
Agarkar - 2 50s in 53 knocks
Boucher - 2 50s in 18 knocks (but again he's batted far more at 6 or 7 than at 8)
Razzaq 4 50s in 24 knocks (and you've guessed it he usually bats further up the order, notice a pattern here?)
Afridi - 2 50s in 21 knocks (but guess what, he noramlly bats a lot higher)
Dhoni - No 50 in 3 knocks
Pathan - 1 50 in 14 knocks.

So a total of this "small sample" - 18 50s in 325 inngins, so prolific (!)

However remove the higher order batsmen who've dropped down and it's 6 in 199.

 

[marc71178]

As have been detailed in previous posts, he bats low down for his county, low down for England, has a poor domestic One Day record and has a top score of 30 in 33 ODIs.

So yes, saying all that Id still take him over Foster and Jones. I have him behind Pothas and Prior

Your turn, make the arguement that he isnt.

Well I'd have him behind Gilchrist as well actually, but since he's not available that's irrelevant.

I'd be interested as to why a far inferior keeper such as Prior should be picked when his batting has been equally poor if not worse.

 

[Goughy]

Hogg - 1 50 in 31 knocks
Vaas - 1 50 in 89 knocks
Lee - 1 50 in 9 knocks
Pollock - 4 50s in 63 knocks (but note that he's batted more at 7 or above than at 8)
Agarkar - 2 50s in 53 knocks
Boucher - 2 50s in 18 knocks (but again he's batted far more at 6 or 7 than at 8)
Razzaq 4 50s in 24 knocks (and you've guessed it he usually bats further up the order, notice a pattern here?)
Afridi - 2 50s in 21 knocks (but guess what, he noramlly bats a lot higher)
Dhoni - No 50 in 3 knocks
Pathan - 1 50 in 14 knocks.

So a total of this "small sample" - 18 50s in 325 inngins, so prolific (!)

However remove the higher order batsmen who've dropped down and it's 6 in 199.

The small sample was looking at a few games and the careers of players that played in them.

It has nothing to do with prolific, but to counter a statement that few had ever done it.
The fact does not change that people have scored 50s at #8, so I dont really see your point.

EDIT- A quick look at NZs last ODI shows they had at least 2 playing in that game that have done it, Vettori and McCullum

 

[Goughy]

As have been detailed in previous posts, he bats low down for his county, low down for England, has an average domestic One Day record and has a top score of 30 in 33 ODIs.

So yes, saying all that Id still take him over Foster and Jones. I have him behind Pothas and Prior

Your turn, make the arguement that he isnt.

Well I'd have him behind Gilchrist as well actually, but since he's not available that's irrelevant.

I'd be interested as to why a far inferior keeper such as Prior should be picked when his batting has been equally poor if not worse.

Ah, an excellent, indepth and insightful defence of Read as a quality ODI batsmen

 

[vic_orthdox]

Hogg - 1 50 in 31 knocks
Vaas - 1 50 in 89 knocks
Lee - 1 50 in 9 knocks
Pollock - 4 50s in 63 knocks (but note that he's batted more at 7 or above than at 8)
Agarkar - 2 50s in 53 knocks
Boucher - 2 50s in 18 knocks (but again he's batted far more at 6 or 7 than at 8)
Razzaq 4 50s in 24 knocks (and you've guessed it he usually bats further up the order, notice a pattern here?)
Afridi - 2 50s in 21 knocks (but guess what, he noramlly bats a lot higher)
Dhoni - No 50 in 3 knocks
Pathan - 1 50 in 14 knocks.

So a total of this "small sample" - 18 50s in 325 inngins, so prolific (!)

However remove the higher order batsmen who've dropped down and it's 6 in 199.

But when you look at SA's and Pak's line-ups, at times these guys are legitimately the number 8 batsmen for the side.

 

[marc71178]

The fact does not change that people have scored 50s at #8, so I dont really see your point.

My point is that it is a very rare occurance, yet you're jumping on Read for not doing it in not a very large number of innings.

 

[marc71178]

But when you look at SA's and Pak's line-ups, at times these guys are legitimately the number 8 batsmen for the side.

So SA line up with both Boucher and Pollock at 8 then (even though both have batted higher than 8 on far more times than they've batted 8?)

Likewise Pakistan have both Razzaq and Afridi at 8?

 

[marc71178]

Ah, an excellent, indepth and insightful defence of Read as a quality ODI batsmen

That's funny i could've sworn he's been picked as a wicketkeeper first and foremost.

The contributions with the bat are a secondary consideration, because he's at number 8, not number 5 or 6.

Incidentally he's got to 20 on 10 out of the 21 times he's had to bat - fairly consistent for a lower order player, but instead you moan that he's only scoring 9 runs per game...

 

[vic_orthdox]

So SA line up with both Boucher and Pollock at 8 then (even though both have batted higher than 8 on far more times than they've batted 8?)

Likewise Pakistan have both Razzaq and Afridi at 8?

Outside of semantics...

Both teams have fairly flexible line-ups, in which case depending on form and the situation, these batsmen can be legitmately the no. 8 batsmen for their country in ODIs.

 

[marc71178]

If they're legitimately the number 8 how come they have played many more times at 6 or 7 than at 8 then?

 

[aussie]

As have been detailed in previous posts, he bats low down for his county, low down for England, has an average domestic One Day record and has a top score of 30 in 33 ODIs.

So yes, saying all that Id still take him over Foster and Jones. I have him behind Pothas and Prior

Your turn, make the arguement that he isnt.

Thats is not everything, we all have seen Read, Prior, Foster & domestic & more importantly international level & is quite obvious that Read is the best candidate for England ATM.

 

[BoyBrumby]

As have been detailed in previous posts, he bats low down for his county, low down for England, has an average domestic One Day record and has a top score of 30 in 33 ODIs.

So yes, saying all that Id still take him over Foster and Jones. I have him behind Pothas and Prior

Prior's a non-starter for mine. He had his chance last winter, batting up the order without the gloves to concern him & still averages less in ODIs than Read, who's an infinitely superior keeper.

If qualified I'd certainly say Pothas is worth a punt, if only as (by necessity given his age) a short-term option until (say) Davies @ Worcestershire steps up.