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England's ideal ODI squad

tooextracool

International Coach
marc71178 said:
Indeed he hasn't, and I'd say he never will because I imagine that Fletcher has watched him and therefore looked past the average to decide if he's likely to do it at a higher level.
and we all know how well thats turned out.
Instead of Jon Lewis, we've had kabir ali, sajid mahmood, Liam Plunkett, Tim Bresnan and a few others.
Instead of Ian Bell we had Rob Key, Rikki Clarke, Owais Shah, Vikram Solanki, Anthony Mcgrath and the rest.
There has never been a reason to pick a player who cant score runs in domestic cricket, because if he cant score runs in domestic cricket, how on earth would he do so in international cricket?
btw Mark Ramprakash is certainly worth a shot over half the clowns that are currently in the England side.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
marc71178 said:
Not if his game has been analyzed by those who have watched on a few occasions and they can see where he won't succeed against the top class of bowling.
ODIs are very rarely about technique. The fact that players like Abdul Razzaq and Chris Gayle have forged successful ODI careers only emphasises the point further.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
I still have my doubts about Lewis on anything that isn't like the conditions he's had to bowl in in this series.

I've never said pick players who can't score runs, just that the ones who score the most runs aren't necessarily the best players, and that is the selectors jobs to pick who they can see have the mental ability and technique to play at the highest level - as the examples of the likes of Vaughan and Trescothick have proven.

As for Ramprakash - seeing as we have a selection problem to get Flintoff back in the side, how the hell does he get ahead of any of them?
 

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
marc71178 said:
I still have my doubts about Lewis on anything that isn't like the conditions he's had to bowl in in this series.

I've never said pick players who can't score runs, just that the ones who score the most runs aren't necessarily the best players, and that is the selectors jobs to pick who they can see have the mental ability and technique to play at the highest level - as the examples of the likes of Vaughan and Trescothick have proven.

As for Ramprakash - seeing as we have a selection problem to get Flintoff back in the side, how the hell does he get ahead of any of them?
There will always be exceptions to any rule, but as a rule of thumb it if a player is not successful in domestic cricket then thy will not be successful in international cricket.

Ive previously done a fair bit of research on this and the best indicator of potential international success for English batsmen is domestic average.

The difference in the chance of success of a player with a FC batting av in the 30s compared to the 40s is massive but it is a lesson England dont seem to learn.

Vaughan and Tresco are exceptions and Ramps and Hick show it does not guarantee success.
There are obviously environmental issues that effect success but dont let blips make you loose track of the trend
 
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tooextracool

International Coach
marc71178 said:
I still have my doubts about Lewis on anything that isn't like the conditions he's had to bowl in in this series.
and obviously the better options are Kabir Ali, Sajid Mahmood and Liam Plunkett all 3 of whom fail not only in any conditions but also against third rate county players. but hey, maybe if they were thrown into international cricket, their sheer personality might change all of that right?
As far as Lewis is concerned, its amazing how someone has been such a revelation this series just by being able to bowl straight? Do i think he will be successful? Yes as long as hes not used in the death. In fact it might not be the worst idea to have him bowl 10 on the trot opening the bowling once Flintoff and the rest return. and he seems to have done a fairly good job in the subcontinent on the A tour.All of that is irrelevant though, because it does not change the stupidity of the selectors for selecting the plunketts and mahmoods of the world ahead of him.

marc71178 said:
I've never said pick players who can't score runs, just that the ones who score the most runs aren't necessarily the best players, and that is the selectors jobs to pick who they can see have the mental ability and technique to play at the highest level - as the examples of the likes of Vaughan and Trescothick have proven.
Exceptions dont prove a thing. When 9 out of 10 successful England players have good domestic records then you try to find those 9 players not the 10th one. As such you cant know that someone doesnt have the mental ability unless you tried them.

marc71178 said:
As for Ramprakash - seeing as we have a selection problem to get Flintoff back in the side, how the hell does he get ahead of any of them?
England have a selection problem to get Flintoff back in the ODI side??!!
What on earth are you on?
 

Mr Mxyzptlk

Request Your Custom Title Now!
tooextracool said:
last 2 years is pretty recent. Fact is that if you take any number of games as being 'recent' while eliminating his tour of India you'd find that his record is very poor. One good series doesnt make a player, if he was in good form he would have had a good series thereafter, which he clearly hasnt.
But his most recent forms suggests he's been better than most of the team. At least wait for him to fail again before sacking him.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
tooextracool said:
In fact it might not be the worst idea to have him bowl 10 on the trot opening the bowling once Flintoff and the rest return.
10 on the trot may be OK in cooler conditions but I can't see

tooextracool said:
Exceptions dont prove a thing. When 9 out of 10 successful England players have good domestic records then you try to find those 9 players not the 10th one. As such you cant know that someone doesnt have the mental ability unless you tried them.
I've not said anything against good records, of course they need a good record, but they don't need to have the 50+ averages IMO, as proven by the 2 greatest domestic batsmen of the generation being relative (or huge) failures at Test level.

Bowler wise it's even more pronounced.

tooextracool said:
England have a selection problem to get Flintoff back in the ODI side??!!
What on earth are you on?
Test side, the same thing I've been talking about all along on this scenario.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Mr Mxyzptlk said:
But his most recent forms suggests he's been better than most of the team. At least wait for him to fail again before sacking him.
Problem is that 'better than most' isnt exactly promising when you consider how poor the rest are. Mind you out of Tresco, Strauss, KP,Bell & Dalrymple id say Collingwood is the one closest for the chop.
Also i would say that he has been a failure since the tour of India.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
marc71178 said:
10 on the trot may be OK in cooler conditions but I can't see.
Depending on the conditions yes, but hed certainly not be a bad bowler to have in the middle overs either to do a Mark Ealham type job.

marc71178 said:
I've not said anything against good records, of course they need a good record, but they don't need to have the 50+ averages IMO, as proven by the 2 greatest domestic batsmen of the generation being relative (or huge) failures at Test level.

Bowler wise it's even more pronounced.
No i've never said that. I am a firm believer however that you need to succeed at the domestic level to some sort extent(even if its only one season- their most recent season) to be considered for the international level. Players like Vaughan and Trescothick, would in all likelyhood at some point have had successful domestic seasons and made a claim for the England side anyways.

marc71178 said:
Test side, the same thing I've been talking about all along on this scenario.
I was talking about ramprakash being a part of the ODI side. Theres absolutely no reason why i would want a 37 year old proven failure in my test side.
 

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
marc71178 said:
My point about Ramprakash (and to a lesser extent Hick) is that he is so dominant in County Cricket, but that is more owing to the lack of quality opposition than anything else.
marc71178 said:
I've never said pick players who can't score runs, just that the ones who score the most runs aren't necessarily the best players, and that is the selectors jobs to pick who they can see have the mental ability and technique to play at the highest level - as the examples of the likes of Vaughan and Trescothick have proven.
You can learn a lot from looking at averages. Many players are picked on mythical potential and how they look rather than how they perform.

Domestic averages are always a great place to start when evaluating talent and then you can add value judgements and calls based on personal preference. However, ignore averages at your peril.

For the period beginning English summer 1995-2005 England gave debuts to 18 players that were expected to make runs (batsmen, keepers and allrounders) that have career List A batting averages of under 30. The list includes players such as Vaughan, Solanki, Key etc as well as keepers Read, Jones, Prior, Foster

How many average over 30 in ODIs? A big fat ZERO. To repeat that, of 18 players expected to make runs that average under 30 in List A none of them averaged over 30 in ODIs.

In the same time period 5 players were picked with list A averages over 35. Of the 5, 4 averaged over 35 in ODIs (3 over 40) and the only one not to average over 35 was Adams and he was only given 5 games.

Is it any surprise that players fail when they have no chance in the first place.
To make things a little overly simple, a player that averages under 30 in List A will do the same in ODIs and a player that averages over 35 will do the same.

The value judgements come in for the players averaging 30-35.
 
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Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
My England ODI squad

Based on
- Players I believe are the best available rather than youth and potential
- Partially on the principles outlined in the above post
- Players that can improve areas that England have shown weaknesses recently

1st XI
Trescothick (If not available bring in Ali Brown for the fun and games)
Strauss
Bell
KP
Joyce
Flintoff
Collingwood
Pothas (If not eligable then Prior)
Yardy (my one punt, just because I like the look of him)
Gough
Tremlett

Squad Players
Loye
Dalrymple (not his biggest fan but provides options)
Pick 2 of the 3 - Broad/Kirtley/Anderson (cant decide, I like the look of Broad but it may be too soon and Kirtley has been on fire and has a great career record and Anderson has been successful previously but Im not sure about the lack of cricket). Pick any of those 3 and Id be happy. Personally if I had to choose I go with Kirtley and Anderson but its close

Maybe harsh on Cook, but I prefer players to at least prove themselves a little before being selected and he has not. Good player though

Even I cant find room for Ramps and Adams but if they were a few years younger then they would be there.
 
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tooextracool

International Coach
Goughy said:
My England ODI squad

Based on
- Players I believe are the best available rather than youth and potential
- Partially on the principles outlined in the above post
- Players that can improve areas that England have shown weaknesses recently

1st XI
Trescothick (If not available bring in Ali Brown for the fun and games)
Strauss
Bell
KP
Joyce
Flintoff
Collingwood
Pothas (If not eligable then Prior)
Yardy (my one punt, just because I like the look of him)
Gough
Tremlett
i can never understand the logic of having Flintoff at 6 in ODIs. Firstly hes probably better than half of the top order, and you'd therefore went to get him in as early as possible rather than have him come in later on in the innings. Further flintoff has always been a better player when hes had time to play himself in, in fact its only since hes started doing that in test cricket that his batting stats have skyrocketed. Despite the quality of our top order id still much rather Flintoff came in at 30/2 than at 50/4, and i would certainly not bat him below 5 in ODI cricket. I also have to question the non inclusion of Lewis who one would think has done nothing wrong to be dropped, certainly if anything youd at least know what you'll get from him as opposed to Gough and Tremlett.
I agree with you on Cook though, i dont think he has the shots, or the ability to play aerial to be a good ODI player even if you were to ignore his list A record. His success in test matches have largely revolved around his temperament which is very sound.
 

pietersenrocks

U19 Vice-Captain
1.Andrew Strauss
2.Marcus Trescothick
3.Ian Bell
4.Kevin Pietersen
5.Andrew Flintoff
6.Jamie Dalrymple
7.Michael Yardy
8.Paul Collingwook
9.Monty Pnesar
10.Stephen Harmisson
11.Stuart Broad
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Goughy said:
Pothas (If not eligable then Prior)
Pothas has a chance no doubt, but definately not Prior he wasted his chances at international level, James Foster should be ahead of him.
 

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
superkingdave said:
looks very light on bowling, 3 crocks, Yardy and Collingwood.
Of the 4 reserves I mentioned 2 are seamers (Kirtley and Anderson) and also Dalrymple so there is room to bring an additional bowler. The team mentioned may be a little light on bowling but the squad has a lot of flexibility.
 

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
aussie said:
Pothas has a chance no doubt, but definately not Prior he wasted his chances at international level, James Foster should be ahead of him.
In all honesty if Pothas doesnt play then the keeping is very weak and Jones, Read, Foster and Prior are all below the quality I would desire.

I mean Foster has never scored a List A century and very, very few 50s in his career. 3 50s in over 100 List A games. I dont think that he should allowed near the ODI side but someone has to be and its a pretty weak bunch.

EDIT- Read, Foster and Jones have played a combined 408 list A games. Prior has played in 129 and scored more 100s than the other 3 combined.

Im not a big fan of Prior but I think he may well be the best of a bad lot.
 
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aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Goughy said:
In all honesty if Pothas doesnt play then the keeping is very weak and Jones, Read, Foster and Prior are all below the quality I would desire.

I mean Foster has never scored a List A century and very, very few 50s in his career. 3 50s in over 100 List A games. He should not be allowed near the ODI side.
Yea Read doesn't have any List A hundreds but that has a lot to with he normally bats @ 7/8 & wouldn't have much time to make centuries. But we all have seen Read bat in ODI's & most of the time he has impressed.

But yeah if Pothas could play for England it could enhance the batting a bit. But i'm not sure if England will pick him due to his age & looking at the fact that he may not be in the side for a long time.
 
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Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
aussie said:
Yea Read doesn't have any List A hundreds but that has a lot to with he normally bats @ 7/8 & wouldn't have much time to make centuries. But we all have seen Read bat in ODI's & most of the time he has impressed.
But yeah if Pothas could play for England it could enhance the batting a bit. But i'm not sure if England will pick him due to his age & looking at the fact that he may not be in the side for a long time.
Really? He has played more ODIs than his highest score. A top score of 30 out of 33 ODIs is not at all impressive for me. In fact its pretty **** poor. He contributes on average less than 9 runs an ODI.

Simply, its not good enough and looking at his domestic record it should have been clear that that would always been the case.
 

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