Barney Rubble
International Coach
All I meant is, it's a personal thing.GoT_SpIn said:Didnt Bradman cause Grade and state games to be sold out?
Though it is your cricketing world
All I meant is, it's a personal thing.GoT_SpIn said:Didnt Bradman cause Grade and state games to be sold out?
Though it is your cricketing world
..and since when did a century become the sole arbitrer of good batting then?marc71178 said:How many great attacks did Tinarse actually score centuries against then?
...but that doesn't mean that he is better than botham or that warne is better than bradman....Barney Rubble said:Hear hear. Voted Freddie for the same reason I voted Warne > Bradman a while back - his impact on my cricketing world has been immeasurable.
I was intrigured, having had a quick look at his tons, to see how any of those attacks (with the possible exception of the Alderman-lead one) were actually any great cop (in terms of having more than 1 good bowler)Anil said:..and since when did a century become the sole arbitrer of good batting then?
Well, here's a couple of tons of his with at least one 'great' (whatever that is) bowler in the attack;I was intrigured, having had a quick look at his tons, to see how any of those attacks (with the possible exception of the Alderman-lead one) were actually any great cop (in terms of having more than 1 good bowler)
GoT_SpIn said:Didnt Bradman cause Grade and state games to be sold out?
Though it is your cricketing world
Not true at all. Listen to alot of the people who are knowledgeable (ex-pros, analysts etc) and they will often talk about Bothams personality and aggression hiding and overshadowing an almost immaculate batting technique.Top_Cat said:EDIT: Oh yeah, knew I forgot something......... As for who's better, I think Freddie has better raw materials than Both did (tighter technique with bat and ball)
those figures seem spectacular to you, but not as consistent as flintoff....would you care to explain how you figure that???pskov said:I don't think it's as clear cut as some people think.
Botham from debut to the end of the English 1982 season (before injury started slowing him down):
54 matches - 2996 runs @ 37.92 with 11 centuries; 249 wickets @ 23.32 with 20 five-fors
Flintoff's last 35 matches (roughly since he's been a genuine world class allrounder):
35 matches - 2142 runs @ 41.16 with 3 centuries; 137 wickets @ 26.36 with 2 five-fors
Botham was more of an impact player. Despite having a worse batting average, he made centuries more regulary than Flintoff has and Beefy also picked up a lot more 5 wicket hauls. However, if Flintoff can continue at his current rate of performance through to the end of 2007, which is far from inconcievable, then they could be pretty fairly compared over a similar stretch of matches. So far, it seems Flintoff is more consistent, but Botham was more spectacular.
..and flintoff's increasing consistency as a batsman in recent years on extremely flat wickets against declining bowling attacks the world over should be considered more impressive than that...right? that too in an era when 40 is considered a sub-par average and tons of batsmen have 50+ and 55+ averages....not knocking flintoff here but you are not giving botham a fair deal when you dismiss his achievements thus...marc71178 said:I was intrigured, having had a quick look at his tons, to see how any of those attacks (with the possible exception of the Alderman-lead one) were actually any great cop (in terms of having more than 1 good bowler)
Flintoff's batting average is higher than Bothams was, but Botham hit centuries more often than Flintoff has. So, Botham was more likely to get either a big score or a get out for a low score, whereas Flintoff is more likely to hit solid 40s, 50s and 60s. Also Botham has a lot more 5fors, so he got his wickets much more in bunches than Flintoff who spreads them around. That's what I meant.Anil said:those figures seem spectacular to you, but not as consistent as flintoff....would you care to explain how you figure that???
So Botham played heaps of Tests between 1977 and 1979 before the compromise between Packer and the ABC? Riiiight.............At his absolute peak, Botham probably just gets my vote, but there's no getting away from the fact that heck a lot of his tests in that period were against sides that were weakened by Packer or just plain ordinary anyway.
Name me one bowler who DIDN'T struggled against the WI during the 80's, let alone one who also had to bat in the top 7 and do the business in consecutive 0-5 losing series'. Averaging mid-30's in that period against the WI was an achievement!The Aus series in 1979/80 showed that he could cut it against decent sides, but it's pretty well established that he struggled badly against WI.
Botham averaged about 24 with the ball in his first 60-odd Tests; that tells you he did both taking wickets in bunches and consistently took 3/4-fers. That's the difference between Both and Freddie; Freddie is consistent, occasionally devastating. Botham was simultaneously consistent and devastating throughout that period.Also Botham has a lot more 5fors, so he got his wickets much more in bunches than Flintoff who spreads them around. That's what I meant.
Er ..It's a fair chunk of the period when he was any good. Thereafter you get twin series against WI when he struggled, 1981 against an Aus side with a decent attack but weak batters, a couple of decent series against a moderate India side and an OK series against Pakistan. You probably know what came next.Top_Cat said:So Botham played heaps of Tests between 1977 and 1979 before the compromise between Packer and the ABC? Riiiight............. .
IIRC he batted well enough in 1984, but I doubt that he averaged mid-30's against them in 1980, 1981 or 1985/6. As for bowlers, Imran & Hadlee both had their successes against WI. One of the big myths perpetutated by the 80's generation is that 5-0 was a frequent margin of victory for WI in that period. In reality, we were stuffed far more comprehensively than anyone else, and that's down to the players of that era, including Beefy.Top_Cat said:Name me one bowler who DIDN'T struggled against the WI during the 80's, let alone one who also had to bat in the top 7 and do the business in consecutive 0-5 losing series'. Averaging mid-30's in that period against the WI was an achievement! .
Shhh Barney.....fight fight fight.Barney Rubble said:Let me just clarify my stance on this. Botham was by far the superior player, but Flintoff has shaped my life as a cricket fan in such a way that I just can't vote against him. Sorry guys.