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Thread: *Unofficial* New Zealand Black Caps Thread

  1. #481
    123/5 Flem274*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by straw man View Post
    I doubt they're contractually entitled to 5 weeks holiday whenever they feel like i.e. during a major tour.

    It's obvious to me that both extreme views that we might have in this case are wrong
    - Viewing national sport as being purely or even primarily about maximising your earning ability is a very sad view of the world
    - Making absolutist statements about how playing for your country should trump all financial considerations comes across as sanctimonious when we're not faced with the moral dilemma ourselves

    (not saying members of this forum necessarily hold either of the above views)

    Hence the need for a crappy compromise somewhere in those shades of grey. My hope is that messrs McCullum and Vettori, who have both already done pretty well out of the IPL and more-or-less set themselves up for life, will forfeit several tens of thousands of dollars from a couple of IPL weeks to at least play the England tests and preferably one warm-up match. It doesn't bother me much if McCullum also plays some meaningless IPL rather than some only-slightly-less meaningless ODIs and T20s vs England.

    It's a lot harder for Taylor, because he's the captain, is supposed to set an example and it's a terrible message for him to leave his team to go make some $$$. IMO if he wants to be NZ captain he has to suck it up and play every match vs England.

    These guys are perfectly entitled to also express just how pissed off with this scheduling they are to NZC and anyone else, with the hope that this decreases the chance of this sort of conflict being repeated.

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    Straw man.

    More seriously, agree with everything you've said here.
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  2. #482
    Hall of Fame Member Hurricane's Avatar
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  3. #483
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    I don't think it's an option to say 'hey guys, you've done quite well out of the IPL over the years - now is the time to forgo a bit more and pitch in for your country'. Again, you're cutting down players' financial well-being. This money is setting them up for the rest of their lives. Sport is fickle, they're entitled to make it when they can.

    The IPL are not devious in their scheduling, it happens at the same time every year. Look I hate the IPL with a vengence but I know it is too hard to ignore for those who get to play in it.

    These guys love playing for their country but they also love their families, financial security and setting themselves up for life. Take Jesse for example, if he still was in the NZ frame and playing IPL. He doesn't have a uni degree, he's not the most glowing bulb in the house, and he's never done anything but play cricket. Through the game, he is now mortgage free and a long way to setting himself up to not have to worry too much about his post-career. Good luck to him doing that, as he should be able to.

  4. #484
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    Youre right strawman

    The BCs arent entitled to take any 5 weeks off that they feel like.

    Their Collective Bargaining Agreement states that they have 'a window' of 5 weeks in which to play in the IPL

    So basically NZC have said they will not call on the players for that length of time during the IPL...now they will sit back and let the players cop the media and fans abuse for doing something that NZC said they could do

    which sucks for me over here in the UK. i look forward to these tours, dont want to pay my money to watch a second string team, but i understand the players are not in the wrong here


  5. #485
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    Derbyshire Cricket - Peakfan's blog: Martin Guptill - an appreciation

    Martin Guptill - An Appreciation

    Depending on the outcome of an x-ray on an injured finger, Martin Guptill may have played his final innings for Derbyshire this season. He may or may not be able to play against Warwickshire at the County Ground tomorrow, but this is an appropriate time to pay tribute to a player who has made a massive impact at the club in a relatively short space of time.

    When John Morris signed him two winters ago, there were a few raised eyebrows. Guptill had been on the scene for a few years in New Zealand yet was still only a young man. Former Derbyshire stalwart John Wright was the intermediary and thought that Guptill could do a good job for Derbyshire, at the same time that Derbyshire could do a good job for Martin Guptill.

    A reputation as a classical batsman with a wide range of strokes yet an impetuous nature in using them suggested that the player would entertain and it was Wright who moved Guptill up the order, seeing potential in him as an opening batsman. His first season at Derbyshire was sound, if not spectacular, some good Championship knocks following a difficult start and some brutish deliveries. His T20 campaign was perhaps the highlight, his clean, straight style of batting, willingness to hit through the "V" and work hard for the cause making him a stand out. A century against Yorkshire in the CB40 at Chesterfield was special and Guptill returned to New Zealand with his reputation enhanced, not just as a player. Few overseas players - injured ones to boot - would deign to carry the drinks, as Guptill did at Essex last summer, keen to remain part of the team to the very end.

    Few overseas players have "mucked in" as Guptill has been willing to do either. I've seen plenty around the circuit over the years who turned it on for the TV cameras, for a big game or when conditions were in their favour, being less keen to do the hard yards at other times. Guptill is an example to all in that respect, throwing himself around in the field and displaying the perfect attitude and preparation at all times.

    Which, of course, makes him the ideal man for a young side, keen to learn and watching the moves of the "stars" of the side. Guptill had a wonderful winter, scoring heavily for New Zealand and his native Auckland in all forms of the game and news of his return was greeted with considerable enthusiasm.

    He has repaid the club with a fine aggregate and the recognition of being perhaps the best overseas player on the circuit right now. Nearly 600 runs at 50 in the Championship and over 200 in three CB40 games has again shown him as a classically correct player with the ability to take an attack apart. He now goes on to the big innings that for some time eluded him and his clean aggression at the top of the order has played a major part in Derbyshire's early season success, as has his brilliance in the field. He still has the ability to hit the ball a country mile, but his technique has tightened up and his all-round game has matured. Guptill is the business..

    At 25 he has the world of cricket at his feet and will, I think, be seen as one of the best batsmen in the game over the next five years. This year he turned down the opportunity to play IPL to return to Derbyshire and further hone his game, a decision that was both appreciated and respected. It is unrealistic to expect him to do so in the future, as players can earn far more for six weeks in India than they could for a summer in England. If Martin Guptill throws his hat into the ring for next year's IPL there will be an orderly queue forming for his services.

    Will we see him in Derbyshire colours again? I sincerely hope so, as he is a major talent, as well as a man of decency and humility. How many international stars would opt to stay with a couple of team mates in a spare room than take the expensive apartment on offer to them? Guptill did just that and there are a number of such stories about his level-headedness and all-round affability that could be told.

    The bottom line is that Martin has been a gem for Derbyshire cricket, which has also been an excellent finishing school for him. I would love to see him back, though looking at next summer's schedule I feel that it is unlikely to be in 2013. His New Zealand commitments to their tour of England will see him at the County Ground in early May, but the tour continues to the end of June, certainly ruling him out of the bulk of the T20 at least.

    History will record Martin Guptill as a very, very good batsman, one with the potential to become great. Those who played or worked with him will testify to him being a diamond of a man and a pleasure to have around the place.

    Such a combination sets him a very select company. On behalf of all Derbyshire fans, thanks Martin. It really has been our pleasure.
    I was just lurking around the Derbyshire forum and came across this, worth a read IMO.
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  6. #486
    International Coach straw man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveNZ View Post
    I don't think it's an option to say 'hey guys, you've done quite well out of the IPL over the years - now is the time to forgo a bit more and pitch in for your country'. Again, you're cutting down players' financial well-being. This money is setting them up for the rest of their lives. Sport is fickle, they're entitled to make it when they can.

    The IPL are not devious in their scheduling, it happens at the same time every year. Look I hate the IPL with a vengence but I know it is too hard to ignore for those who get to play in it.

    These guys love playing for their country but they also love their families, financial security and setting themselves up for life. Take Jesse for example, if he still was in the NZ frame and playing IPL. He doesn't have a uni degree, he's not the most glowing bulb in the house, and he's never done anything but play cricket. Through the game, he is now mortgage free and a long way to setting himself up to not have to worry too much about his post-career. Good luck to him doing that, as he should be able to.
    A few things I'd say here.

    Firstly it is up to the players involved to make these decisions based on what they think is right, not us. So we (I don't know if you mean fans or NZC) shouldn't try to tell the players what to do, but the players need to know their are multiple considerations and consequences of this decision. It is up to the individuals to decide whether maximising their earnings is a very high priority right now or whether it's a medium priority.

    If the players make decisions that are purely about financial self-interest then they will be rightly criticised. This is not about me flag-waving or resenting the fact that they (some anyway) have far more money than me, it is just about acknowledging that financial considerations are not the only tie that matters. Two others are:

    - They are contracted (currently) to NZC. Clearly a contract is an agreement to do something in return for some money and conditions. If you're not going to do what the contract says i.e. be available for selection for NZ, then don't sign it and don't accept the benefits of that contract. If what Trapol says about NZC guaranteeing the players an IPL window is true, then that complicates things a lot further. That guarantee would be very foolish, seeing as there is not an international window for IPL. NZC are in a weak position and will have to compromise anyway on the money/conditions of the contract, for the simple reason that NZ IPL players not signing on and becoming freelancers a la Chris Gayle is a terrible result for NZC.

    - Playing for your country has meaning. It just does. If you 'love playing for your country' but aren't willing to make any sacrifices whatsoever to do that, then you don't really love playing for your country. There also need to be recognition that playing for NZ was the pre-condition that enabled these guys to ever get selected for the IPL.

    If your view is that the above two points have zero value and it's all about maximising earnings, then I fundamentally disagree. I'm certainly not saying the above two points automatically override playing in the IPL, earning money and probably having a pretty good time too - they don't. Balance balance balance.

    The debate around whether this scheduling conflict should have happened at all is separate to the above. The situation is what it is and requires a choice.

    I'm somewhat confident that Taylor, Vettori and McCullum, who all seem like pretty decent characters and care about cricket and playing for NZ, and who are already probably pretty well off due to IPL, will at least make themselves available for the England tests. Compromise will be necessary, perhaps skipping T20s/ODIs/warm-ups to play IPL.

    If we had someone who was likely to be selected for England series, was an emerging player with $12 in the bank, a history of serious injuries and an offer to earn big money in IPL 2013, then the situation would be less clear cut for them. I certainly wouldn't blame them for taking the money then. However this player does not exist (there is so much uncertainty with Ryder that I could not possibly predict what he'll be doing in 12 months).

    I hope the right compromise is reached.

  7. #487
    International Coach straw man's Avatar
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    Also, Guptill is the man.

    Some of those comments are probably a little over-exuberant but it's still a fantastic endorsement of him.

  8. #488
    Global Moderator vic_orthdox's Avatar
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    I agree a lot with what SteveNZ says, but I think the situation is and should be different for the captain of the team.

  9. #489
    International 12th Man BackFootPunch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by straw man View Post
    If we had someone who was likely to be selected for England series, was an emerging player with $12 in the bank, a history of serious injuries and an offer to earn big money in IPL 2013, then the situation would be less clear cut for them. I certainly wouldn't blame them for taking the money then. However this player does not exist (there is so much uncertainty with Ryder that I could not possibly predict what he'll be doing in 12 months).
    For some reason I actually think Ryder is probably the most likely of all our guys to choose playing for New Zealand over the IPL. Not sure why I get that impression but I feel like he really does value playing for the country and perhaps doesn't see the financial rewards as important as other players do.

    But who knows tbh, just a gut feeling. Guess we'll find out in a year or so.

  10. #490
    123/5 Flem274*'s Avatar
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    Yeah sounds like Guptill has been working hard and seems a top guy. Hope he can come through at the top level next season.

  11. #491
    Hall of Fame Member Hurricane's Avatar
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    New thought - play the ODIs before the english tests - that way the IPL lads will just miss out on 1 ODI game.

  12. #492
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane View Post
    New thought - play the ODIs before the english tests - that way the IPL lads will just miss out on 1 ODI game.
    England wouldn't go for it, I'd imagine. It would be heresy to put an ODI series first and given their players don't play IPL, they'd not care much for it either.

    As for Guppy and that article, that is a fitting summary of the man. They could have also added that he regularly comes home from long tours and turns out for his club side. Top bloke, hopeflly he adds to it with delivering on his talent.

  13. #493
    Hall of Fame Member Hurricane's Avatar
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    Why does he get out all of the time in tests? He used to just have a **** back foot defence but he has fixed that. Then it was a crappy forward defensive stroke where he accounted for movement where there was none - or just played down the wrong line.

    The part I focused on in the article was that he has tightened his game. I hope he has.

  14. #494
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane View Post
    Why does he get out all of the time in tests? He used to just have a **** back foot defence but he has fixed that. Then it was a crappy forward defensive stroke where he accounted for movement where there was none - or just played down the wrong line.

    The part I focused on in the article was that he has tightened his game. I hope he has.
    Because he's really loose outside off stump and goes at the ball with really hard hands. No reason why he shouldn't be able to continue to work on it though.

  15. #495
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveNZ View Post
    England wouldn't go for it, I'd imagine. It would be heresy to put an ODI series first and given their players don't play IPL, they'd not care much for it either.

    As for Guppy and that article, that is a fitting summary of the man. They could have also added that he regularly comes home from long tours and turns out for his club side. Top bloke, hopeflly he adds to it with delivering on his talent.
    Why would it be heresy, we had that situation before the 05 Ashes and it made the build-up all the more interesting.
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