*Unofficial* New Zealand Black Caps Thread

[Bahnz]

TBF, Crowe was a bit a "sh!t bloke" back then.

Rutherford was not the only one.

He even fell out with his brother.

I think we can make a list of people who retired rather than play under Martin Crowe's captaincy as:
Immediately:
- Jeff Crowe
- Martin Sneddon
- John Bracewell

Eventually (as per Ken's book):
- Trevor Franklin
- Willie Watson

Others he fell out with and eventually excluded from teams he captained (I think):
- Mark Priest
- Chris Pringle

I am actually keen to read Martin Crowe's "Raw".

I've read bits and pieces of it. Gives his perspective on the Taylor/McCullum affair (understandably he's on Taylor's side, but really had his ire reserved for NZ Cricket rather than McCullum). Talks misleading bollocks about Murali (comments that Murali's bowling speeds during his initial ICC action test were too low to be trusted, but ignores the fact that during a subsequent review of his action, he bowled at normal speeds). Rants about what a **** John Bracewell was. It's a bit uncomfortable to read at times tbh.

 

[jcas0167]

TBF, Crowe was a bit a "sh!t bloke" back then.

Rutherford was not the only one.

He even fell out with his brother.

I think we can make a list of people who retired rather than play under Martin Crowe's captaincy as:
Immediately:
- Jeff Crowe
- Martin Sneddon
- John Bracewell

Eventually (as per Ken's book):
- Trevor Franklin
- Willie Watson

Others he fell out with and eventually excluded from teams he captained (I think):
- Mark Priest
- Chris Pringle

I am actually keen to read Martin Crowe's "Raw".

I will have to re-read Rutherford's book but I don't recall Franklin or Watson retiring because of Crowe. In fact, Watson played in the last test Crowe captained before his knee gave out on the 93 tour to Australia.

Also, Crowe was a big fan of Pringle. He wanted him at the 92 World Cup and the selectors picked Murphy Su'a instead without consulting Crowe.

Raw is a great read. I went to the book launch in Wellington. Funnily enough he wrote it with Joseph Romanos who wrote the fairly critical Tortured Genius. Crowe said at the launch he realised Romanos had probably made a fair assesment of him so asked him to help with Raw. He defends what Fleming referred to as "the 80's mafia", who dominated NZC coaching and administration. Also, suggests Fleming was at least as good as Vaughan and Chanderpaul and should have averaged around 45 or higher.

 

[Immenso]

For the most recent insights to that era. I recommend listening to the Dion Nash episode of The Top Order podcast. It was really interesting.

Has his version of the pot smoking, without dropping names.
A bit of comparison on Turner and Rixon coaching (with the hindsight of 20 years of maturity)
Even info on when he was one of 3 selectors (10 years ago) with Turner and Hadlee as the other 2.

I like the bit where as a 19 or 20 year old 'test' player he made the mistake of mis-fielding for Otago in front of Neil Mallender - at that stage an uncapped, 12 month a year trans-hemispheric pro, 10 year veteran, who had obvious contempt that someone could get a test cap so easily.

 

[Immenso]

I will have to re-read Rutherford's book but I don't recall Franklin or Watson retiring because of Crowe. In fact, Watson played in the last test Crowe captained before his knee gave out on the 93 tour to Australia.

Also, Crowe was a big fan of Pringle. He wanted him at the 92 World Cup and the selectors picked Murphy Su'a instead without consulting Crowe.

Raw is a great read. I went to the book launch in Wellington. Funnily enough he wrote it with Joseph Romanos who wrote the fairly critical Tortured Genius. Crowe said at the launch he realised Romanos had probably made a fair assesment of him so asked him to help with Raw.

I might have Crowe/Pringle totally around the wrong way, sorry. Let's just say Ken didn't want him in his team again after South Africa 94/95 (on top of his care-taker captaincy stint in Australia 93/94), he liked the social side if touring.

Pretty sure Ken hint's that Franklin and Watson retired youngish as Crowe's captaincy wore them down.

 

[nzfan]

I was just re-reading Richardson's book recently. It's highly recommended because he is so candid about everything, particularly his shortcomings as a bowler (he got the 'yips') and then his efforts to salvage his career as a batsman. Brian Lara comes across as a dickhead.

I think they got the English coach, Mickey Stewart, to try to console Richardson after that game where his bowling went to pieces. It's interesting to see how the old school critical approach of Jeff Crowe was disastrous for a budding spinner.

I also thought it was interesting Greg Chappell offered to help the NZ batsmen on the 2004 tour to Australia but Bracewell just dismissed the idea out of hand.

The book provides a lot of material for the mental side of the game with Richardson's sports psychologist contributing to part of the book.

Yup... very much remember Brian Lara bit in the book. I suppose the story goes Richardson mentioned Zoe, the Aussie woman that had bowled Lara. Lara took offence to that and walked Richardson all the way to the wicket abusing him.

Richardson clearly mentions Lara didn't look the part because he saw shagging previous night. In fact he also mentioned the honey is one of the reason some play cricket. That is seething. You know why Dunedin used to be preferred by players in the past. Definitely not for cricket reasons.

 

[nzfan]

I've not really read many cricket or sporting bigraphies. Usually it irrationally infuriates me that they write them a year or 2 before retirement.

But, recently read 3 in a row after picking some up at 2nd hand sales.

Read Ken Rutherford's 'Hell of a way to make a living' and then immediately afterwards read Glenn Turner's "Lifting the Covers' which covered his stint as coach in the 1990s.

Rutherford's book is full of grievances with Turner.
- his coaching of his older brother Ian, turning him from shot-filled dasher to a dour stodger.
- his treatment of him as young player in his first stint as coach
- his dropping him from team and as captain as first thing he did in 2nd stint as coach

Turner's book barely mentions Rutherford:
- about one paragraph, using stats from last x years, to explain why Rutherford wasn't worth place in team.

You'd think dropping the encumbent captain entirely from team and inserting a 'specialist captain' should cover a lot of a book. Leaving this out would make it so much less interesting. But 'luckily'; the antics of Cairns, Parore, M Crowe, Morrison, Twose, Greatbatch, Doig and Turner himself made it still an extremely interesting read .......

No way... I thought of the two books sold by Rutherford I bought one and he did the other lol.... I did buy Rutherford's, it's quite engrossing in fact. I even bought and read Larsen's book those days, go figure.

 

[Bahnz]

I think the only bio I've read all the way through was Chris Cairns' one from 2002. **** read for the most part, but had a couple of eye-opening anecdotes from the Turner era, especially Glenn's bizarre reverse-psychology pep-talk during the 95 tour of India when (with the 5-game ODI series level at 2 all) he basically said:

"Look guys, we all know you're not winning this - NZ cricket teams have always dropped their bundle in high-pressure games. Just try not to **** the bed too badly."

Also had a bit of interesting stuff on the rivalry between Nash and Cairns as the two emerging allrounders post-Hadlee. Apparently in a Shell Cup game, Nash deliberately came out to bat one time without a helmet when Cairns was bowling. Cairns was so irate about the slight against his pace that he proceeded to bounce Nash relentlessly for the next couple of overs until Nash finally gloved one to the keeper.

 

[Flem274*]

TBF, Crowe was a bit a "sh!t bloke" back then.

Rutherford was not the only one.

He even fell out with his brother.

I think we can make a list of people who retired rather than play under Martin Crowe's captaincy as:
Immediately:
- Jeff Crowe
- Martin Sneddon
- John Bracewell

Eventually (as per Ken's book):
- Trevor Franklin
- Willie Watson

Others he fell out with and eventually excluded from teams he captained (I think):
- Mark Priest
- Chris Pringle

I am actually keen to read Martin Crowe's "Raw".

the only one who'd get a gig these days is bracewell anyway, thank god.

 

[Immenso]

the only one who'd get a gig these days is bracewell anyway, thank god.

and Priest, possibly. In a test team. Ajaz but with added batting.

 

[nzfan]

Jeff Howarth anyone? I'm pretty sure it was him that was found in a park drunk and passed out during a test series when he was a coach. Quite sure I've read that in someone's biography. There's a book lying around in the garage of Howarth as well... You got to say the books then were full value for money. There were enough controversies and characters to keep the reader interested.

You don't get that now a days... the players won't write books unless they've retired. I suppose books have gone out of fashion but love to read auto biographies of current players. Chances are they'll never take interest to write.

 

[jcas0167]

reading the old books makes you realise what a ****ing joke nz cricket coaching and admin was here back then even though we were in the 'professional' era. even in the fleming era they were just throwing stuff at the wall with that motivational bloke bracewell brought in who wanted to drop half the team and the academy churning out constantly injured fast bowlers.

in good times we succeeded in spite of the best efforts of our behind the scenes staff.

the one thing they did do right towards the end of that era was flatten the pitches and disband the academy. the decentralisation of high performance coaching in nz has made players think about their game for themselves from an early age and (vitally) the best coaches are spread around the country, available for players to seek them out one on one.

imagine an era where trent boult, tim southee, matt henry, kyle jamieson and lockie ferguson all attended the academy lol.

I remember in the 90's a live in academy was seen as the thing NZ needed because Australia had one and were producing loads of quality players (Warne got kicked out). The main criticism I've seen of it was that the constant bowling on indoor surfaces and efforts to change actions led to back injuries for various fast bowlers. Not sure if Australia still follow the approach they did in the 90's.

Jeff Howarth anyone? I'm pretty sure it was him that was found in a park drunk and passed out during a test series when he was a coach. Quite sure I've read that in someone's biography. There's a book lying around in the garage of Howarth as well... You got to say the books then were full value for money. There were enough controversies and characters to keep the reader interested.

You don't get that now a days... the players won't write books unless they've retired. I suppose books have gone out of fashion but love to read auto biographies of current players. Chances are they'll never take interest to write.

I guess players are better paid now and can voice opinions on social media if they want to. It also helps if the players or coaches in question feel they got shafted and want to set the record straight (Rutherford, Turner) compared to those who are pretty content (Vettori, Fleming).

 

[Bahnz]

Yeah, Howarth always had a problem with drink (hope he's gotten over it). There was a bit in Rutherford's book (who clearly had a soft-spot for Howarth) about how during the NZ Cricket awards one year, Howarth got so drunk that he practically couldn't walk straight when it was his turn to give a speech.

 

[The Hutt Rec]

Haha, I've read snippets from "Hell of a Way to make a living", and boy Ken isn't a big fan of Crowe is he? Spends quite a bit of time ranting about how Crowe was a chardonnay-sipping elitist while Ken was a beer-drinking man of the people. Gives you a good sense of how disfunctional NZ were in the dark days of the mid-90's before Rixon and co started turning things around.

Yep my main memory of Rutherford's book is definitely of about 50% of it being him going on about he's such a good keen man who wears a woolen jersey, while M Crowe is off eating oysters and drinking champagne.

I dunno if you get too much great cricket insights from those books, but the bitter personal grudges and feuds really make them for me. They just don't hold back! It's incredible ... and maybe more incredible they all actually made it onto the field for each match without half the side sporting black eyes.

Rutherford vs Crowe, Turner vs Cairns and Parore, Howarth vs everyone at NZC, Morrison vs Rixon and anyone who smoked weed, Greatbatch was fuming about something but can't remember what, more restrained noughties efforts from Astle and McMillan vs Bracewell and Bond vs Justin Vaughan, and most recently a return to the obsessive 90s vendettas from McCullum vs Taylor. Brilliant stuff.

 

[nzfan]

I used to buy every book there was about cricket in NZ or was gifted. Must have more books on cricket than the libraries do. Mostly biographies. Used to love reading them. Had the opportunity to grab signatures of three of the best BCs, Sir Richard, Crowe and Turner. Serious possessions.

 

[Immenso]

I was an 80s kid. Grew up watching the 80s team and we were good. The teams hardly changed from when I started watching in 82 until 1990.

But there was the always constant nagging fear of post-Hadlee retirement. Every away tour there was some 5th seamer taken and hoped to be the future Hadlee. Sean Tracey, Brain Barrett, Derek Stirling etc. That was just as a bowler, replacing him as an allrounder seemed just too hard to try

When it finally happened and Hadlee retired. After 7 or 8 years of searching it seemed we were going to have 3 young allrounders all at once; Chris Cairns, Jeff Wilson, Dion Nash.

I admit it had got a bit stale. Only real youngsters during me adolesence were Martin Crowe, then Ken Rutherford and Danny Morrison. In early 90s it seemed it could be an exciting brave new world.

Never in my wildest dreams could I have expected it to go as bad as it did once the old guard moved on.

It is these experiences that colour my hesitancy at NZFans ideas about promoting youngsters. Or change for changes sake. I have a nagging fear that the next era will end up collapsing like sand, and that it was all built on a fragile collection of coinciding good talents. So lets enjoy the now and ride it to the bitter end.

Part of this is contradictory. As above, the 80s team all aged at once. So I should be up for introducing new talent. But the other part is that almost every blackcap I saw who debuted as 19 to 21 ended up as either flops, disruptors, or colossal underachievers for their prodigal talents.

The bad side of the teenager to 21-year-old ledger:
Rutherford, thrown to the wolves young.
Cairns; underachiever for about 10 years of his 15 year career. Colossal knob.
Parore; huge underachiever with bat (IMO). Colossal knob.
Nash: not an under-achiever. But took a mature second coming to get there. If his mature part of career was longer (injuries) then he would be down with Southee in the other list.
Fleming; underachiever by about career average 5 runs in both formats.
McMillan; under-achiever (but only just, but feel he was downhill skier masking the underachievement)
McCullum: under-achiever (late maturer rescued it somewhat)
James Franklin: Plenty of mentions of him in that recent thread about players who disappointed.
Butler
Milne

The good side of ledger, Prodigal youngsters, debuted early who actually achieved their potential:
M Crowe
D Vettori
K Williamson
T Southee (eventually)

 

[jcas0167]

Yep my main memory of Rutherford's book is definitely of about 50% of it being him going on about he's such a good keen man who wears a woolen jersey, while M Crowe is off eating oysters and drinking champagne.

I dunno if you get too much great cricket insights from those books, but the bitter personal grudges and feuds really make them for me. They just don't hold back! It's incredible ... and maybe more incredible they all actually made it onto the field for each match without half the side sporting black eyes.

Rutherford vs Crowe, Turner vs Cairns and Parore, Howarth vs everyone at NZC, Morrison vs Rixon and anyone who smoked weed, Greatbatch was fuming about something but can't remember what, more restrained noughties efforts from Astle and McMillan vs Bracewell and Bond vs Justin Vaughan, and most recently a return to the obsessive 90s vendettas from McCullum vs Taylor. Brilliant stuff.

I think Hadlee showed the way in the 80's, lifting the lid on his falling out with Coney and the car controversy. They even wrote (ghost written) columns in those days where they might criticise the team.

 

[The Hutt Rec]

I think Hadlee showed the way in the 80's, lifting the lid on his falling out with Coney and the car controversy. They even wrote (ghost written) columns in those days where they might criticise the team.

I thought of Hadlee vs Coney after writing that! And reading Hadlee's book it's not hard to decifer he hates everything Ian Botham stands for, as well.

I guess it's good times have changed now and they all seem to be pulling in the same direction, but it was a lot of fun while it lasted haha.

 

[nzfan]

@Immenso

The guys these days are different. It's hard to compare the 80s/90s era to this. Now the boys are way more confident and feel like they are as good as anybody. For a starter they don't lack confidence which used to be our problem. I guess the current black caps team has done that. They win fair bit which trickles down to the up and coming talent of the belief nothing is impossible. Different mindset, up bringing and generation. We're not push overs anymore or ones that win a game or two. This does have an effect on the grass root cricket too.

Our coaching structure is way more solid, winter trainings readies the players way better now and players are already well travelled either through the 19s or As programme. They are not as green as you think. Besides our training facilities have become way better. Over all unlike in the past the players are not left alone on their own but helped all along the way.

My belief has changed over the years. Have watched, played and been involved in cricket for decades now. I can definitely see we are not going to stop producing top cricketers at least for the next 10 years. Need to see how it pans out after but at the moment some of the players we have up coming will be world class, I have absolutely no doubt about that. Sure they may not pump a double in their debut but these guys have enough up their sleeve these days unlike in the past.

 

[Immenso]

Yes. And throwing in some youngsters for some of the JAMODIs and JAMT20s are really just the equivalent of taking a youngster for some non-test county games.

Of the 3 youngsters you've been banging for. I now think 2 of them (Sears and Allen) have earned a spot in the current format under play (T20s). So I'm with you now partly.

But take Finn Allen. My observations in last 40 years of how easily young NZ prodigal talents go haywire. While I think he now deserves to be pushing Guptill for that place. But another part of of me wants to see him succeed or be solid in all 3 domestic formats first (he has gaps in his CV). As we've seen our youngsters get ahead of themselves as with thin talent base we sometimes promote too early. We don't need to promote early in this current instance. So, maybe make him work harder for it.

 

[nzfan]

Last of my post on the trio, I promise People must start to think I'm getting paid to do their PR lol

Both approaches has merit no doubt. The longer time in domestic cricket does help players that are still getting there but not for those that already have everything that it takes to succeed at the highest level IMO.

I've had a chance to speak to many pundits over the years and clearly Ravindra is just way ahead in their opinion too. The first thing you hear from any black cap past and current about him is how level headed he is and the unbelievable ability in all formats and all facets of the game. It's not a coincidence he was promoted to NZ A straight away. Such elevation just doesn't happen in NZ frequently or maybe it never did. BTW over the years you'll hear rightly Kane rates him big time and so did Hessen. Stead has a different take on things I suppose. The agency that looks after Kane has signed up Ravindra as well. Check out Kane's you tube channel and you'll see him posting comments on NZC on Ravindra's videos. Have had a chance to speak to some players from the touring sides about our next in line. There hasn't been an opponent that hasn't rated him the first time they saw him bat or bowl. We're talking legends of the game here. His time will come and I'll be surprised if he doesn't do special things over the course of time. Domestic numbers will also catch up soon enough reflecting his ability. Maybe in a year or two. Whenever they give him a go he'll come all right, now or couple of years later. Only a matter of time I feel. For now indication is that he's going to be out for a while so the argument is in a way futile.

I do rate Finn but in all honesty yes he needs to work out his technique for one day cricket and long format where best of the bowlers will bowl for longer duration and can set fields to test him. I never quite said he's good to go in all formats. In T20s he's definitely the man. This is the way he's batted through out his life I suppose. It's fine if he doesn't become awesome in all formats. His game is best suited to white ball cricket at the moment. He'll have to do some work in the background and get better at red ball cricket. He can make a good middle order bat in the long run. That shouldn't stop him being given a go in some jam T20s. What's the worse that can happen? It's not like couple of failures will set him backwards or the team backwards. Sure you think twice before handing out test caps but some T20s vs Bangladesh?

Sears in my opinion is best suited for one day cricket right now. Although his best format I predict to be test cricket in the long run, he's quite injury prone and a bit fragile. Needs a bit of work on the lower body to sustain bowling good long consistent spells. I think the fast bowlers should debut in the early 20s. That's when they are most flexible and will bowl longer fast spells. Over the time the body gets a bit tight with age, that's when they get a bit smart about when to bowl quick spells and when to bowl at say 75%-80% If he features for like a year or two in one dayers and moves into other formats that'd be perfect. Of all the three I think Sears definitely should be the first one NZC should look at. It's not a race but I suppose Sears'skills are the most befitting what is a solid team at the moment. We need a bowler like Lockie and I can't see beyond Sears for that job. Sears also bring the bounce into equation, something most batters dread. Even the best batters don't like balls rearing off full length. Best to get him playing first vs Bangladesh. Looks like the most fragile of the three as for self confidence goes.

Whether these guys are going to be selected to play for BCs soon enough or not I have no doubt having followed/seen them for years it's not going to be different from what I've seen. Although hard to predict how far each individual go as it depends heaps on their personal lives as well at least for now they look a lock in for future.

There are other players too with similar potential but not yet noticed in the circuit. Who knows there may be another half a dozen just working their way in the under 13s, under 15s and we will soon start to hear about them as much in 2-3 years time. Indications are we are just about starting to tap the potential.