*Unofficial* New Zealand Black Caps Thread

[nzfan]

Here's my attempt to put that List A NZA team into a batting order, in a sensible NZ conditions format of 3 seamers, 1 spinner, plus allrounders (rather than playing both higher profile players Patel and Astle in same team at the expense of balance, thus reducing other specialists opportunities)

1 George Worker
2 Glenn Phillips
3 Rachin Ravindra
4 Tom Bruce (c)
5 Jimmy Neesham
6 Mark Chapman / Cole McConchie
7 Tom Blundell (wk)
8 Todd Astle / Ajaz Patel
9 Kyle Jamieson
10 Jacob Duffy
11 Ollie Newton

Only a 3 match series, though, and would expect everyone to get a minimum of 2 games each.

So would expect a:
Astle / Patel / McConchie split
and
Neesham / Chapman / McConchie / Worker split

That's a reasonable go... Ravindra will open and Phillips will go at no.3 I think. Phillips has been batting at no.3 for Auckland this season from memory. Jimmy won't bat at no.5, he'll likely bat at no.6 or no.7 Blundell or Chapman will go at no.5 and 6. Rest you've lined up anyways. Great to also see Jacob Duffy getting a go at NZ A. By the looks of it Nathan Smith was in consideration as well and missed out due to hip injury.

Just want one of Ravindra, Worker or Phillips force their way into Black Caps and get rid of slogging Munro. This is the best opportunity. Here's hoping couple of decent knocks for any of the three, preferably Ravindra or Phillips as they can go on to play for good number of years. I don't dislike Munro personally but there is no way he could have played as long as he has for Black Caps for any other country. He's mediocre when he's at his best form.

 

[Kippax]

There might be a NZC rule but there's definitely no ICC one. You could select Joe Root if you wanted to.

NZC have claimed ignorance here. A bit like the "New Zealand U19 involved in thriller with the UAE" headline on nzc.nz earlier in the week, they've played it down by saying they're pleased to have avoided anything too ruinous here with Conway. No Justin Vaughan advice to Shane Bond about the ICL or anything like that.

Just kidding, just kidding. The tweet I've put out is getting likes from the right people, I think we'll have a proper answer by the end of the day.

 

[thierry henry]

Just want one of Ravindra, Worker or Phillips force their way into Black Caps and get rid of slogging Munro. This is the best opportunity. Here's hoping couple of decent knocks for any of the three, preferably Ravindra or Phillips as they can go on to play for good number of years. I don't dislike Munro personally but there is no way he could have played as long as he has for Black Caps for any other country. He's mediocre when he's at his best form.

I can't stand Munro's style of batting but he's arguably the most successful all-formats NZ domestic batsman of his era - it seems really bizarre to single him out as undeserving of the opportunities he's received?

I agree he has well and truly failed as an ODI player and his time is up, but if you're talking about him warranting dumping from the NZ T20 team then I'm also not quite sure where you're coming from?

 

[nzfan]

I can't stand Munro's style of batting but he's arguably the most successful all-formats NZ domestic batsman of his era - it seems really bizarre to single him out as undeserving of the opportunities he's received?

I agree he has well and truly failed as an ODI player and his time is up, but if you're talking about him warranting dumping from the NZ T20 team then I'm also not quite sure where you're coming from?

57 one day games, averaging 25 at a strike rate of about 105. I rest my case. He also played a courtesy test match but that was a long time ago and anyways he doesn't want to play red ball cricket so his performances in first class cricket is of no consequence. It's not like he averaged 50+ in all formats to be calling him arguably most successful all formats NZ domestic batsman In T20s domestic he averages just under 30, one day 35 and first class 52. I can't be convinced he's all time great domestic cricketer in NZ let alone around the world. He's been given a long overstay in one dayers, we do have better players than him. He can be likely persisted in T20Is maybe for a series or two or max till the world cup unless he's consistently scoring at a high strike rate and scoring enough.

Oh I did mean one day. When I said Worker or Phillips or Ravindra take over from him I was referring to one day. NZ A is not playing T20s.

 

[The Hutt Rec]

Munro still performed well in the international t20s last season, from memory. Was ranked number one in the world not too long ago. Deserves his spot in that format for now ... certainly ahead of Worker!!!

 

[Kippax]

Yes Munro would crack a statistical all-time team in our 50-over domestic cricket, there's just no getting around it. As it stands today, his overall numbers are still only diluted by his outings for NZ and NZA.

Ravindra fans may well cry out "rescue him! Rescue him from that putt-putt course, that windmills and clowns' mouths List A scene he's in" but sadly we can't change the facts. He'll have to cut out every soft surrender, stop looking for his favourite flick through midwicket to very full ones from spinners, leaving it up to some domestic umpire. He has to become a dominant young stud.

 

[The Hutt Rec]

I have to admit I’ve seen nothing to suggest Ravindra is close to being ready for international cricket yet. Looks great in patches, but hasn’t put together a full package of an innings at domestic level yet.

 

[Athlai]

I have to admit I’ve seen nothing to suggest Ravindra is close to being ready for international cricket yet. Looks great in patches, but hasn’t put together a full package of an innings at domestic level yet.

Williamson was like this tbf.

 

[nzfan]

Yes Munro would crack a statistical all-time team in our 50-over domestic cricket, there's just no getting around it. As it stands today, his overall numbers are still only diluted by his outings for NZ and NZA.

Ravindra fans may well cry out "rescue him! Rescue him from that putt-putt course, that windmills and clowns' mouths List A scene he's in" but sadly we can't change the facts. He'll have to cut out every soft surrender, stop looking for his favourite flick through midwicket to very full ones from spinners, leaving it up to some domestic umpire. He has to become a dominant young stud.

Those arguing against Ravindra, you are comparing apples with oranges if you are looking for a Kane Williamson in him. This lad opens the batting or bats very high and is playing all formats within the first year of domestic cricket. Basin is one of the largest grounds in NZ, the domestic deck resembles outfield mostly and has the most bounce of all. We have to give him some time to develop and be patient. It doesn't help he plays all formats of cricket, testimony to his skills to be fair. He's also missed fair bit of domestic cricket over the last couple of years owing to NZ A. Besides best of the bowlers bowl at the start of the inning, it's not that easy to dominate in all formats with the bat and ball with the minimal experience he has. He must still be figuring out his own game plan at the moment.

Should he have done more? I believe yes. To get into international side but there is no hurry. Besides this lad bowls full quota of overs most of the times in all formats. Different player altogether. I have always said it is going to be very hard for him to sustain opening batting and bowling full quota of overs day in day out. Ideal if he can bat in the middle order but don't think that's going to to happen right away.

I personally think he has all the ingredients to make a very successful international cricketer both with bat and ball but he has to bide his time. Continue playing as many games as possible and understand his own game.

The question is not about whether Ravindra can replace Munro but there are other incumbents such as Phillips, Worker, Rutherford and if Munro is still picked despite average mid 20s after 50+ games for Black Caps then I clearly don't understand the selection policies. Besides is Munro like 32?

 

[Kippax]

There might be a NZC rule but there's definitely no ICC one. You could select Joe Root if you wanted to.

Well it's going to have to be either a quite new (and probably unofficial) guideline that NZC and NZCPA have decided upon, or a very particular rule about "New Zealand A" being the one and only form of these NZC teams where they won't do it.

Here's Wagner playing for a "New Zealand XI" before he's eligible, and he also went on NZ Emerging Players tours to Queensland in 2009 and 2010 -
https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...ur-match-zimbabwe-tour-of-new-zealand-2011-12

 

[Athlai]

Williamson batted 3 when he started domestically. And didn't average a whole lot at all for a while. He was still learning the game when he made it to Test level.

 

[Kippax]

Hmm he did have four FC 100s and six 50s before he'd turned 20, Williamson.

Enjoyed the less aggressive demands of late 2000s List A cricket, as well -

The comparison here really only stems from both being renowned for their work ethic and having an uncommon amount of style in their play for a Kiwi kid.

 

[Athlai]

2 seasons into his career he was averaging 38 in the Plunket right around the time batting seemingly flattened out in the Shield and the likes of Pinga and Woodcock were averaging 70 and top scoring the tournament. It was definitely a case of a few naysayers starting to wonder if Williamson was all hype or not.

 

[Kippax]

First two full seasons before he'd turned 20 were better than you recall them to be, I think -

 

[nzfan]

The comparison here really only stems from both being renowned for worth ethic and having an uncommon amount of style in their play for a Kiwi kid.[/QUOTE]

On this note, Ravindra has had season and half. Half the season or more has pretty much been vs International second sides. Over in UAE he batted no.9 twice or probably didn't bat more than once, can't remember. In fact from memory we were 7 down in no time with Ravindra and Young to the rescue putting on some decent partnership. First game at that level vs Pakistan A and in UAE not against a run of the mill side.

Fast forward to his next few List A games vs India, I clearly remember him batting no.11 and batted no.3 once. Then this year he made his ford trophy debut. First game was like 30 ball fifty followed by a 70 ball 100 vs Aces. Then an unfortunate run out. That's not bad is it for a young player?

I see what you mean with the comparison with Kane but Kane was playing for ND when he was 17. Ravindra was signed up for Firebirds when he was 19. I think the NZ A not knowing what to do with him has caused some issues to his growth. They used him as a bowler the first year in one dayers and as a batsman in first class. They were probably confused or didn't know he can score quickly in other formats?

First class is where he has not gone as good as he should have in my opinion. Didn't convert many close to 100 scores. If he did I'm pretty sure he will have been playing for Black Caps given his bowling as well in two format if not all the formats.

I think they should let him be and stack those numbers. I personally don't think numbers really matter. It won't take long for an astute selector to figure out a worthy international talent. From all accounts he's on the right path and NZC knows when to get him into the national side. They won't mess him up. If they only went by runs and wickets in domestic you know it's quite easy to work out the top 7 run scorers and top 5 wicket takers and put them in the team. We know how that team will perform at international level

 

[Athlai]

Franklin WAFG

 

[Kippax]

Yes those early NZA runs were pretty good from Ravindra, although every left-hander down to Wagner kind of made a few runs there. Pakistan A had picked a left-arm orthodox for that one when they probably could've done with a good offspinner as well.

We're getting a good picture on him being a bit of a Blundell. Spends his winters with the machine cranked up to 145 on a quick indoor pitch, Hutt Hawks tours the exception.

 

[nzfan]

Yes those early NZA runs were pretty good from Ravindra, although every left-hander down to Wagner and van Beek kind of made a few runs there. Pakistan A had picked a left-arm orthodox for that one when they probably could've done with a good offspinner as well.

We're getting a good picture on him being a bit of a Blundell. Spends his winters with the machine cranked up to 145 on a quick indoor pitch.

I don't know about that... they were tottering every inning and in fact Ravindra had to block out to secure a draw batting down the order. Remember reading a report where Jeet Raval made near hundred with 3 drop catches. Wasn't Ravindra the top run scorer for that series?

Anyways, you guys said the same when I said Ravindra should be playing for Firebirds and so should Ben Sears two years ago Their run scoring and bowling was compared to club cricketers that were doing better than them. Now these two lads are very important cog in the wheel for Firebirds. Those club cricketers that were scoring better or taking more wickets have gone nowhere.

Isn't Van Beek a rightie?

 

[Kippax]

Yes sorry not van Beek.

 

[nzfan]

Nevertheless I will revisit this thread in some years to come with Ben Sears (injury not withstanding) and Ravindra being the two of the more important members of the Black Caps squad. I'd say give it 5 years time. Bit of a Wellington bias but I wouldn't suggest putting a dollar against these two lads, you will lose it