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*Unofficial* New Zealand Black Caps Thread

The Hutt Rec

International Vice-Captain
It’s been quite a journey, hasn’t it. I think we all get frustrated when the team doesn’t perform, or head scratching selections happen, but gosh we’ve been pretty damn lucky with the performance of the side in the 2010s.
 

Flem274*

123/5
they've caught up to what they should have always been since hadlee retired tbh

our most talented bowlers until boult probably didn't play 100 tests between them and the likes of jesse ryder preffered breaking windows to scoring 20 test hundreds.

despite the struggles on a couple of overseas tours it's good to see a decade where they're up around the other nz sports sides
 

Flem274*

123/5
was wondering how a ****ing **** team in 2010-11 competed in india and stole a test in aus, flemings side were competitive with decent but not outstanding players and the 80s side did lots of winning around the world so i have statistically filtered selected players records to see who does well in aus, sa and india aka the hardest places for nzers to tour. i know this is simplistic and there are mitigating factors for kane and ross (kane was a spud until captaincygate test, ross sample size in sa is tiny and includes his dayboo series) but this will still be interesting.

batsmen

kane williamson 1145 @ 35 (hates his early career, hates 2019)
ross taylor 1178 @ 31 (hates sa especially with a terribad 4 tests, likes aus somewhat)
brendon mccullum 1071 @ 28 (loves india)
bj watling 487 @ 23 (padded by good tour of sa believe it or not)
martin crowe 1054 @ 47 (all of these runs came against aus - he toured india and sa at the end of his career and was awful)
john wright 786 @ 31 (never played sa obv)
andrew jones 803 @ 44 (never played in sa)
bruce edgar 326 @ 29 (ditto)
jeremy coney 282 @ 23 (all against aus)
ken rutherford 445 @ 24
geoff howarth 198 @ 24
stephen fleming 1723 @ 38
mark richardson 604 @ 35 (brought down by aus, was excellent in the other 2 nations)
nathan astle 1854 @ 37 (hates south africa)
scott styris 408 @ 25 (loves india believe it or not, he was baaaaaad to pace and bounce)
craig mcmillan 831 @ 37 (loves india)
chris cairns 659 @ 29 (never played sa away)
jacob oram 1780 @ 36 (passionately hates india)
adam parore 654 @ 26 (passionately hates india and sa, adores aus)

bowlers

richard hadlee 108 @ 19 (never played sa)
ewen chatfield 15 @ 39
lance cairns 22 @ 32
john bracewell 25 @ 40 (this is very good for visiting offie to aus and held his own in india)
danny morrison 23 @ 61 (oof)
dion nash 19 @ 33 (broke down in his only innings against aus with no wickets, played 1 in sa respectably, loved himself some india)
simon doull 25 @ 30 (absolutely loved bowling in sa, not so much aus)
chris cairns 41 @ 37
shane bond 8 @ 52 (samplesizelol of 3 games, 2 his debut series. was obviously good in his only mid career test in sa)
daryl tuffey 11 @ 45 (was really good in india, the other two look like early career and not good)
chris martin 59 @ 34 (thank you top order left handers)
daniel vettori 75 @ 44 (hates sa, averages 40 in the other 2 so equal to john bracewell)
iain o'brien 10 @ 40 (decent in aus, oof in sa)
james franklin 19 @ 38 (australia smashed him and he played against india as a norounder. averaged 27 in sa)
tim southee 45 @ 38 (loves india)
trent boult 42 @ 39
neil wagner 29 @ 26 (PANTS DOWN FOR WAGS BOIS hates india but samplesizelol 2 tests)

conclusion - jones and crowe were gold against pace and bounce, hadlee is a god, flemings side were consistently decent everywhere with the bat and we don't deserve wagner. also kane please score runs like it's 2015 and ross please pretend it is perth or hobart.

we're also really really bad in these countries. really bad.
 
Last edited:

Moss

International Vice-Captain
With Blundell's performance at the McG that adds another to the list of U19s from the 2008 and 2010 WCs who have had a flying start to their international careers (of course, the *start* of Blundell's career was two years ago, but it was a century on debut): Williamson, Southee, Boult, Rutherford, Anderson, Neesham, Bracewell, Latham, Blundell. Though not everyone in that list has kicked on to bigger things, that was still quite a talent pool considering where NZ were in the late 2000s. Gone a long way to ensuring this decade was a very good one.

Here's hoping the likes of Ravindra, Allen, Sears etc catch up, and the 2020s are nearly as good.
 

NZTailender

I can't believe I ate the whole thing
So now the test series is done and dusted, I've been thinking about why this was such a failure:

Under-preparedness
As it's been pointed out, we've come from average pitches vs England who didn't exactly bring their A game, straight into a pink ball test without a warm up or much of a rest for the players. I don't think I advocated for Ferguson to play that 2nd England test but in hindsight he should have. Say he got injured then, it would've been better than getting injured in Aus (not that anyone wants players getting injured, obviously). Getting through 30-40 match overs vs England meant he might've not gone down in a few overs vs Aus.
The one 'tour match' we did get was basically a farce as well. One wonders if the deal from CA was "you get a boxing day test, the SCG, but you have **** all time to prepare. Take it or leave it." and NZC was like "yes suh we will be good suh whatever you say suh." A proper 4 day pink ball FC match before the first test and another 4 day FC match before the MCG would've been great, but in this day and age, I don't think that's ever going to be a 'thing' again unless you're England.
Another culprit is NZ pitches and domestic comp. 6 games a season split by LO stuff. I know what the money maker is but they play such mid-level quality cricket, it makes mediocre players look great and good players look amazing. i'm surprised Blundell did as well as he did, tbh, ditto Phillips. Thought they'd get eaten alive. But beyond them, we;ve got basically Will Young, Seifert (maybe) and Devon Conway in, what, a years time?

Player fitness and squad mismanagement
See Lockie above. Was Boult 100% coming into Melbourne? Should he have played even though all evidence this has pointed to him being a bit undercooked this summer? Didn't look himself vs England before going down injured. Rotation is not something top level sides like to do but in Boult's case you've got to wonder if he should be playing less limited overs stuff or sit out some of the 'lesser' Test series in an effort to regain strength. It always seems like he's rushed back before being 100%, is never allowed to fully recover, goes down again, rinse, repeat. Southee has been generally pretty excellent in Tests in the last couple of years and you wonder if part of that is that he's not in the ODI setup anymore. Should look at making players, bowlers in particular, 2 format players only - no 3 across all formats.
The 2 series 1 squad idea was ridiculous. Whoever decided that should be fired. We ended up calling in 3 players outside the squad and recalling a dropped guy. There should be a backup for each playing role - opener, mid order bat, wicketkeeper, spin bowler, 2 x seam bowlers + another wildcard spare.
Overall, the whole team looked down a level or two. Fielding was average at best. No real buzz in the field. Australia looked like they were constantly having fun with bat and ball. We looked like people turning up to a job we didn't like to make money for a boss we hate.

Too much rope
I was a fairly big Henry in tests supporter but yeah, the guys cooked. Unless he magically reinvents himself as an old hand who can be Wagner-esque in a couple of years, he shouldn't be the reserve seamer unless 4 other blokes get injured. Dire. Santner's century and quick 3fer gave him too much credit, needed to be dumped after Perth. The harsh call would've been to dump him before Perth, but that is slightly unfair on someone who did actually make the most of lucky chances in that one good test. Goodbye from the test team for a few years please, we don't need your batting. Go be Jimmy Neesham and re-learn loving the game because you seem to be like was around the time he was dropped. Riding on previous exploits and not turning up. Please replace with a specialist spinner, preferably Ajaz or Astle.
Raval. Loved the guy but was clearly shot. Bizarrely did well at 3 for that brief period though, but not enough to keep him around. We need to organise replacement opener + a viable reserve asap. Blundell has heart and grit but probably not suited long term - might be a good Watling. Do the job for a bit until the WK position opens up.
Dare I say it, but more critical appraisal of Nicholls was needed. He looked village, like when he first came on the scene. It's odd because I thought this is the kind of situation where he'd thrive - play some gritty cricket and make more of a name for himself in Aus, but he was just an empty batting spot. His position should no longer be considered unquestionable. If Blundell doesn't open, he should get a shot at 5 if Nicholls doesn't perform vs India.

Captaincy

Love captain Kane, but Latham didn't do any worse with the lesser resources he had than Kane. Sounds harsh, but he shouldn't be captaining Tests and ODIs. England and Aus have different captains for those formats and it's working fairly well - for England in ODIs at least. I would actually go as far to say, give Latham captaincy in both formats and just let Kane concentrate on batting.

Insular, and coaching
Coney pointed this out - NZ just keep to themselves. They should be consulting on conditions, bringing in the enemy on temporary contracts and get hungry for information. They seem to have a one size fits all approach to playing everyone - Boult and Southee will swing or seam out the top order, then Wagner does the rest. Except Boult is rusty af and Southee hasn't really got the pace nor the accuracy. He's been doing well in Tests but I think if he wants a longer career he basically has to become Hadlee MkII and hit a dime 6 balls an over, rather than the club cricket 2 swinging balls and 1 scrambled seam 'surprise ball' that hasn't been a surprise for about 5 or 6 years now. So often the bowlers would go 2 balls outside off then put one on the apds, too far down leg. Embarrassing. Each test it was the same plan that really only worked well for Wags, an by the third test he was tired and the Aussies had started to combat it fairly well.
The batsmen came up against an excellent bowling attack but you'd expect that with each test we'd improve as we'd learn the conditions, learn the bowling tactics. But no. What is going on there? Bad batting coaching? Liem Coney said, do some work in Aus, play with locals, get close to the conditions as possible, bring in an Aussie great (imagine Ponting as batting coach?!). The setup is fairly, somewhat admirably, home grown, but you can't help but feel some of our best bowling performances came when we had Donald around. And for that matter, where's Bondy? No faith if Fulton whatsoever. Wasn't keen on McMillan to begin with, but if this series is anything to guy by, Fulton is training the batsmen to bat like Peter Fulton.

Australia's perfect storm
Don't think many sides would've fared too well against this attack and Labuschagne in supreme form. That said, Pakistan at least managed to break 300. All bowlers averaged under 23 and 4 batsman averaged above 40 with one at 38. They had an excellent series - but a top class team in top form would've at least matched them in some departments.
 

The Hutt Rec

International Vice-Captain
We were offered warm up games by Cricket Australia, but turned them down ... a decision which seems to be adamantly being stuck to by Stead and that high performance guy. “Who knows what difference it would have made” ... pretty astounding.

You say the domestic NZ cricket is such a poor standard, but the players that came in from it all did well? I think our domestic game is pretty solid, but it’s very rare any of those players are given a chance at a higher level. The reduction in first class matches is going to come back to bite us in future seasons, though.
 

NZTailender

I can't believe I ate the whole thing
Our first mistake was getting on a plane to go to Australia.
I hear Wagner wanted to tie a rope around his **** and swim to Aus with the team in a boat being pulled by the rope, but it was declined because Santner is afraid of water.
 

NZTailender

I can't believe I ate the whole thing
We were offered warm up games by Cricket Australia, but turned them down ... a decision which seems to be adamantly being stuck to by Stead and that high performance guy. “Who knows what difference it would have made” ... pretty astounding.

You say the domestic NZ cricket is such a poor standard, but the players that came in from it all did well? I think our domestic game is pretty solid, but it’s very rare any of those players are given a chance at a higher level. The reduction in first class matches is going to come back to bite us in future seasons, though.
Haha, get out. Fire the lot of them.

As for Domestic...the players who came in did do pretty well, but overall it's not like we have the most varied of pitches or bowlers. They tend to learn to play seaming 120-130kmph bowlers and then we wonder why they can't handle pace on Aussie or Saffer decks. We have resilience, generally, but not the technique to attack and put the bowlers off their game.

probably the only weakness this Aussie attack has, is if they get taken a hold of, they can go to pieces with their line and length. We weren't good enough to do that. We were barely good enough to defend most of the time. This third test, everyone in the top order got starts, but no one did anything significant.
 

NZTailender

I can't believe I ate the whole thing
Latham broken finger, out for four weeks.
gtfo

at least all these injuries means our fringe players get a chance to prove ourselves.

There's something to be said for consistency and having a tight group, but when they all go down with injuries and illnesses at once you gotta wonder about workload.
 

nzfan

International Vice-Captain
So now the test series is done and dusted, I've been thinking about why this was such a failure:

Under-preparedness
As it's been pointed out, we've come from average pitches vs England who didn't exactly bring their A game, straight into a pink ball test without a warm up or much of a rest for the players. I don't think I advocated for Ferguson to play that 2nd England test but in hindsight he should have. Say he got injured then, it would've been better than getting injured in Aus (not that anyone wants players getting injured, obviously). Getting through 30-40 match overs vs England meant he might've not gone down in a few overs vs Aus.
The one 'tour match' we did get was basically a farce as well. One wonders if the deal from CA was "you get a boxing day test, the SCG, but you have **** all time to prepare. Take it or leave it." and NZC was like "yes suh we will be good suh whatever you say suh." A proper 4 day pink ball FC match before the first test and another 4 day FC match before the MCG would've been great, but in this day and age, I don't think that's ever going to be a 'thing' again unless you're England.
Another culprit is NZ pitches and domestic comp. 6 games a season split by LO stuff. I know what the money maker is but they play such mid-level quality cricket, it makes mediocre players look great and good players look amazing. i'm surprised Blundell did as well as he did, tbh, ditto Phillips. Thought they'd get eaten alive. But beyond them, we;ve got basically Will Young, Seifert (maybe) and Devon Conway in, what, a years time?

Player fitness and squad mismanagement
See Lockie above. Was Boult 100% coming into Melbourne? Should he have played even though all evidence this has pointed to him being a bit undercooked this summer? Didn't look himself vs England before going down injured. Rotation is not something top level sides like to do but in Boult's case you've got to wonder if he should be playing less limited overs stuff or sit out some of the 'lesser' Test series in an effort to regain strength. It always seems like he's rushed back before being 100%, is never allowed to fully recover, goes down again, rinse, repeat. Southee has been generally pretty excellent in Tests in the last couple of years and you wonder if part of that is that he's not in the ODI setup anymore. Should look at making players, bowlers in particular, 2 format players only - no 3 across all formats.
The 2 series 1 squad idea was ridiculous. Whoever decided that should be fired. We ended up calling in 3 players outside the squad and recalling a dropped guy. There should be a backup for each playing role - opener, mid order bat, wicketkeeper, spin bowler, 2 x seam bowlers + another wildcard spare.
Overall, the whole team looked down a level or two. Fielding was average at best. No real buzz in the field. Australia looked like they were constantly having fun with bat and ball. We looked like people turning up to a job we didn't like to make money for a boss we hate.

Too much rope
I was a fairly big Henry in tests supporter but yeah, the guys cooked. Unless he magically reinvents himself as an old hand who can be Wagner-esque in a couple of years, he shouldn't be the reserve seamer unless 4 other blokes get injured. Dire. Santner's century and quick 3fer gave him too much credit, needed to be dumped after Perth. The harsh call would've been to dump him before Perth, but that is slightly unfair on someone who did actually make the most of lucky chances in that one good test. Goodbye from the test team for a few years please, we don't need your batting. Go be Jimmy Neesham and re-learn loving the game because you seem to be like was around the time he was dropped. Riding on previous exploits and not turning up. Please replace with a specialist spinner, preferably Ajaz or Astle.
Raval. Loved the guy but was clearly shot. Bizarrely did well at 3 for that brief period though, but not enough to keep him around. We need to organise replacement opener + a viable reserve asap. Blundell has heart and grit but probably not suited long term - might be a good Watling. Do the job for a bit until the WK position opens up.
Dare I say it, but more critical appraisal of Nicholls was needed. He looked village, like when he first came on the scene. It's odd because I thought this is the kind of situation where he'd thrive - play some gritty cricket and make more of a name for himself in Aus, but he was just an empty batting spot. His position should no longer be considered unquestionable. If Blundell doesn't open, he should get a shot at 5 if Nicholls doesn't perform vs India.

Captaincy

Love captain Kane, but Latham didn't do any worse with the lesser resources he had than Kane. Sounds harsh, but he shouldn't be captaining Tests and ODIs. England and Aus have different captains for those formats and it's working fairly well - for England in ODIs at least. I would actually go as far to say, give Latham captaincy in both formats and just let Kane concentrate on batting.

Insular, and coaching
Coney pointed this out - NZ just keep to themselves. They should be consulting on conditions, bringing in the enemy on temporary contracts and get hungry for information. They seem to have a one size fits all approach to playing everyone - Boult and Southee will swing or seam out the top order, then Wagner does the rest. Except Boult is rusty af and Southee hasn't really got the pace nor the accuracy. He's been doing well in Tests but I think if he wants a longer career he basically has to become Hadlee MkII and hit a dime 6 balls an over, rather than the club cricket 2 swinging balls and 1 scrambled seam 'surprise ball' that hasn't been a surprise for about 5 or 6 years now. So often the bowlers would go 2 balls outside off then put one on the apds, too far down leg. Embarrassing. Each test it was the same plan that really only worked well for Wags, an by the third test he was tired and the Aussies had started to combat it fairly well.
The batsmen came up against an excellent bowling attack but you'd expect that with each test we'd improve as we'd learn the conditions, learn the bowling tactics. But no. What is going on there? Bad batting coaching? Liem Coney said, do some work in Aus, play with locals, get close to the conditions as possible, bring in an Aussie great (imagine Ponting as batting coach?!). The setup is fairly, somewhat admirably, home grown, but you can't help but feel some of our best bowling performances came when we had Donald around. And for that matter, where's Bondy? No faith if Fulton whatsoever. Wasn't keen on McMillan to begin with, but if this series is anything to guy by, Fulton is training the batsmen to bat like Peter Fulton.

Australia's perfect storm
Don't think many sides would've fared too well against this attack and Labuschagne in supreme form. That said, Pakistan at least managed to break 300. All bowlers averaged under 23 and 4 batsman averaged above 40 with one at 38. They had an excellent series - but a top class team in top form would've at least matched them in some departments.
Agree with most but won't knock off our domestic cricket as mediocre. In fact NZ Domestic cricket is stronger than England (by far), India (by good margin) and most other countries barring perhaps Australia. Maybe it's not all that strong when there is a NZ series and NZ A series at the same time but otherwise we have a good strong domestic structure. Most of our recent players coming from domestic cricket are in fact going fairly well in international cricket. We should ideally have way more NZ A series and not just against India A but don't think we can afford that.
 

thierry henry

International Coach
Yeah I’ve never really understood complaints about the standard of our domestic cricket (which have been around for as long as I can recall).

We have never really been a country where our top guys dominate in domestic cricket like top guys do in other places. Also, there are plenty of examples of our guys doing a lot better elsewhere (obvious ones like Jeets and Henry in county cricket). It seems to be a lot harder to just run riot in NZ domestic cricket.
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
NZ domestic cricket is excellent by world standards. It might be true that the gap between international cricket and domestic cricket has widened and that it's a problem, but it's a global problem rather than a NZ one if so.

The PS being so god damn short now is a legitimate problem though, particularly once players outside the Test team miss some of the few games they actually get at that level with white ball games or drinks duties.
 

nzfan

International Vice-Captain
NZ domestic cricket is excellent by world standards. It might be true that the gap between international cricket and domestic cricket has widened and that it's a problem, but it's a global problem rather than a NZ one if so.

The PS being so god damn short now is a legitimate problem though, particularly once players outside the Test team miss some of the few games they actually get at that level with white ball games or drinks duties.
Gap between our domestic cricket and against the likes of India, Australia or England is big but not against other sides. I don't mean disrespect to any of the other international sides but that's a fact.
 

wellAlbidarned

International Coach
given the only two guys to succeed and play some decent pull shots were plucked straight from domestic cricket it seems weird to lay the blame there
 

NZTailender

I can't believe I ate the whole thing
given the only two guys to succeed and play some decent pull shots were plucked straight from domestic cricket it seems weird to lay the blame there
Two blokes with international experience already. I probably overstated how 'bad' our domestic setup is, but given the quality of bowling they're up against and the pitches they play on, more of our A level guys need just that - more A tours. We're not going to get guys on the level of Kane, let alone Smith or Labuschagne, playing the likes of Matt McEwen and Andrew Ellis on the regular.
 

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