*Unofficial* New Zealand Black Caps Thread

[SteveNZ]

Will anyone be surprised if he is announced as a coach or "mentor" for an IPL team next year, or a "hundred" team, or worst case scenario - as England or India coach?

The guy is 43 years old.

He has a family. And he is a professional cricket coach. He was on 250k (presumably USD).

Who gets paid what in cricket | The Cricket Monthly | ESPN Cricinfo

Here are some IPL coach and mentor salaries

IPL 2018: What are the salaries of Indian Premier League coaches?

4 crore is roughly 600k USD. (to do Jurgo's job effectively). So more than twice as much as the NZ head coach job, for 2 months. And I have no idea how much more Vettorri earns than him. But I have seen some big numbers floated around at more clubs.

I would not be surprised to see him coaching RCB next year. (Maybe reunite with Baz McCullum.) Or a different team. But Vettorri was not popular this year.

Nah it wouldn't surprise me one bit. And I wouldn't begrudge him it...the year after the World Cup.

'Hesson was at pains to emphasise he had not accepted a position with another employer or team, and that his motivation for standing down was based purely on a need to pause and refresh after six hectic years, and to play a closer role within his family.' - https://www.nzc.nz/news-items/hesson-to-resign

Pretty loose term - 'had not accepted'. Leaves the door open for 'will accept' doesn't it.

So if he does end up with an IPL team in 2019, it could've played out this way - gets home from India, where he's quite possibly been shoulder tapped and told he can have a side for 2019. Oh but I have an NZC contract...wait, no I don't. Or I won't. Leave it with me.

He signed a contract until the end of the World Cup. This is NZC, who stopped Ross Taylor playing a Big Bash game for absolutely no reason at all other than some sort of phony toughness on policy. So they should, by that standard, not allow Mike Hesson to work during the period he was contracted to NZC - ie the end of the World Cup.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

Nah it wouldn't surprise me one bit. And I wouldn't begrudge him it...the year after the World Cup.

'Hesson was at pains to emphasise he had not accepted a position with another employer or team, and that his motivation for standing down was based purely on a need to pause and refresh after six hectic years, and to play a closer role within his family.' - https://www.nzc.nz/news-items/hesson-to-resign

Pretty loose term - 'had not accepted'. Leaves the door open for 'will accept' doesn't it.

So if he does end up with an IPL team in 2019, it could've played out this way - gets home from India, where he's quite possibly been shoulder tapped and told he can have a side for 2019. Oh but I have an NZC contract...wait, no I don't. Or I won't. Leave it with me.

He signed a contract until the end of the World Cup. This is NZC, who stopped Ross Taylor playing a Big Bash game for absolutely no reason at all other than some sort of phony toughness on policy. So they should, by that standard, not allow Mike Hesson to work during the period he was contracted to NZC - ie the end of the World Cup.

I hear your points. And lets be honest, not many NZC fan is going to be keen on this because he has been so good and succesful as NZ coach.

• Appointed coach 2012
• Tests: 53 (21 wins, 13 draws, 19 losses)
• ODIs: 119 (65 wins, 8 NR/ties, 46 losses)
• T20Is: 59 (30 wins, 5 NR/ties, 24 losses)

• New Zealand’s first-ever series win (in any format) in South Africa (2013, ODI Series)
• A New Zealand record five Test wins in 2014-15
• A New Zealand record ten consecutive wins (in all formats) in 2015, and again in 2016-17.
• Qualified for the final of the ICC Cricket World Cup 2015
• Only New Zealand’s fourth Test series win over England in 88 years (2017-18)
• The BLACKCAPS ascent to No.1 ranking in T20Is; No.2 in ODIs, and No.3 in Tests.

That's impressive stuff for a team from NZ.

Hesson is different from the players. Ross Taylor didn't want to quit NZ, he just wanted to do both BBL and NZC, and NZC said no. NZC keeps on paying Ross that annual retainer, as well as match payments.

Hesson is quitting NZC. I am not sure how NZC could stop Hesson from working overseas despite the contract, coaches are not subject to ICC No Objection Certificates as far as I am aware like players are. And to force him to stand down for a year with no money is really in restraint of trade territory, people are not slaves to their contracts. Damages are of right for breach of contract, not specific performance in servitude. And NZC is not likely to sue him, it will deter future coaches from working for NZC.

Lets put ourselves in Hesson's shoes. He's hot right now. He has made a presence in England and India as a coach, a coach of NZ! If NZ stuff up the world cup next year, say if KW is injured, or Guppie and KW both, and the team crash's out, he loses a lot of international lustre. Maybe not in our eyes as NZC fans, but globally his value drops. Further, lets say it is IPL, there are only 8 teams, Moody is locked in at SRH, Flemming at CSK, that leaves 6 teams. The supply of coaches for IPL outweighs the available jobs, and these are jobs paying Warne and Punter the money to do them. They're very well paid. If he has the opportunity of one now, and he says "nah next year" - that job may not be available then. If he is going T20, he needs to strike while the iron is hot, and after him commentating on Indian media during the IPL, they clearly respect him as a coach to hire him for that role.

I wish he was staying for the World Cup. But more so, I am happy that we had him, and will remember his legacy fondly on NZC. I wish him all the good fortune in the world. And I hope he offers NZC more in the future should he wish to return, even if he is going off and cashing up now. Good on him. He did a damn fine job and we were lucky to have him for as long as we did.

Shame that he is leaving a year out from the WC, but Hess is passing on a fairly stable ODI team to a new coach. My worry is that we NZC get some former player, "motivator" type instead of another 'analytical thinker' like Hesson.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

I just want to honour how good a shape Hesson is leaving NZC in.

Barring injuries or t20 departures, the next major hurdle facing a NZC team or coach is pretty much Ross Taylor's retirement. He'll be just turned 35 at the World Cup next year and he is not wanted by t20 leagues, so he may hopefully extend.

Tests:

Boult and Southee have years left.

Wagner is 32, but probably has years left in him as a test specialist.

Watling is going to turn 33 soon, but already has Blundell in tests to step in for him when required.

Raval and Latham have years left and will all start the next test as certainties bar injury.

KW has many years left. CDG has really stepped up in tests (32 so has a while). Nicholls improving.

Santner, Sodhi and Astle, well that is unfinished. Astle showed promise v England and is my favourite for test spinner. A Patel is still getting better at domestic too, but lacks runs if NZ want batting at 8 in tests (which Hess liked and I agree that Tastle should continue).

In ODI

Munro - hit and miss but an acceptable past summer, Guptil - fantastic, 32 soon, should have years left. Both have failed in IPL keeping their leaving NZC less likely. KW Taylor as above.

Latham as keeper bat - bit scratchy on runs in NZ but got better v England. Santner had a great pyjama series with the bat v England, and great E/R with the ball. CDG - bit flaky still, Anderson continually injured, Neesham gone.

Fergusson, bit flaky, Chapman, well Hess was reluctant to pick him, and we saw why a bit.

But there's still Henry to go back to when required.

Sodhi in limited overs is an asset when required.

So Hess leaves short on depth, but with the nucleus of good limited overs and tests sides. Despite retirements of institutions like Dan Vettorri and BMac, and problem story that is Jesse Ryder.

We need more depth. But as a NZC fan, I'm happy to have a good nucleus.

 

[Dan]

I'm hearing that Hesson's done a Wagner and moved to Papamoa/the Mount, so with the ND vacancy at the moment -- the interviews were last week -- and wanting to spend more time with the family...

 

[Mr Miyagi]

I'm hearing that Hesson's done a Wagner and moved to Papamoa/the Mount, so with the ND vacancy at the moment -- the interviews were last week -- and wanting to spend more time with the family...

He wants a warmer climate and be near his friends (KW, Southee, Boult, CDG, Wags et al) when he is home from coaching overseas?

You may be right. He may be trying to keep his family happy too by being home more. But some have said that, then go on every possible t20 circuit there is.

I just think he is worth a lot more than a NZ domestic cricket coach salary right now with his resume, and I would be looking to pinch him if I were an T20 franchise knowing I can pay him more for 5/6 less work.

I don't hold it against him.

 

[jcas0167]

The Mark Greatbatch one deserves a "?" next to it. I don't think even he knew whether he was the coach or not. You're missing Dan Vettori who was the player coach in 09-10. Fleming also probably deserves a coaching credit during the Aberhart era, as by all accounts he was the driving force behind NZ's strategies during that period.

Of the coaches since I've been watching, I'd say Hesson is probably #1, though it's close between him and Rixon. Tough to compare the two, as Rixon had access to the low-hanging fruit in the form of lifting NZ's then dire fielding standards and getting ****s like Cairns and Parore to stop behaving like ****s (at least on the field).

Mid-tier steady hands were Lees, Aberhart and Wright.

Then there's the simply bad coaches - guys who were clearly out of their depth like Geoff Howarth (who by some accounts was hitting the bottle pretty hard during his tenure) and Andy Moles.

Finally, there's the coaches who not only did a bad job on the coaching side of things, but also helped to wreck the team culture in the process. Glenn Turner is the best example of this, but John Bracewell also deserves a dishonourable mention. Maybe that's being a little harsh on Bracewell as he did achieve good results in ODI's during his tenure. But looking at things from the point of view of tests, Bracewell not only oversaw the decline of NZ from a solid mid-tier team to a distant 8th, he also played a significant role in driving guys like Fleming, Styris and Andre Adams into early retirement, weakening the side for years after his departure.

Haha, yeah I considered whether I should include Vettori in the list. I think they made the final of the Champions Trophy when he was basically the captain and coach.

I think Turner was a good technical coach and had great results in the 80's with a very strong team, and players like Astle, Harris and Fleming improved under him in the 95/96 season. But he was ill-suited to the head coach role with the 90's players and didn't have the man management skills.

In terms of potential NZ replacements, Stead or Edgar might appeal as low key analytical types? guess Malan has had success with CD, so might have a chance.

Part of Hesson's legacy is that whoever takes over, is inheriting a settled and successful team.

 

[straw man]

One step closer to Auckland cricket moving to Western Springs.

Roar no more: Speedway is leaving Western Springs

Western Springs is proposed as the home for all forms of cricket, with a new oval playing field and new stands.
...
Turning Western Springs into a cricket venue will require more money. "Properly developing the site for future use will require a new budget request," confirmed Brooks.

Clow said: "There's nothing in the budget for the development of an oval playing field. Government will have to help with that."

There are no cost estimates for Western Springs at this stage, although concept plans have been developed. New cricket facilities at the park would probably include a stadium for 15,000 to 20,000 people. "About the size of Hagley Park," said Clow.

He said that's a good size for most international cricket matches, although they could get bigger crowds for some Cricket World Cup games and perhaps short-form internationals with Australia and India.

NZ Cricket has long been keen on moving to Western Springs. RFA head of the venue development strategy, Paul Nisbet, told the Herald: "NZ Cricket is strongly in support of an oval ground being developed at Western Springs."

But Auckland Cricket, which is based at Eden Park and uses the No 2 ground, is opposed to shifting. That disagreement will need to be resolved.

Clow said Speedway Promotions' decision to move "unlocks the stadium strategy". That strategy was developed by RFA with a focus on four venues. Western Springs is one of them. In addition to cricket, it would host Australian Rules Football, which is keen to expand into New Zealand.

Eden Park is limited in its ability to host concerts, but with cricket gone, says Clow, "we hope it would become easier to use for major musical events".

 

[NZTailender]

Love Western Springs. Bit harder to get to public transport wise though - maybe the new train line will go near there? Not sure it will though.

 

[NZTailender]

Re: Hesson's timing. it is a bit odd he'd stand down close to a WC, but tbh he should've given up the job perhaps after the last CT if he wasn't going to go through the WC, but he probably didn't know that then.

As much as I'm a fan of his NZC should've gone through a thorough regime change a year or two ago.

 

[straw man]

Love Western Springs. Bit harder to get to public transport wise though - maybe the new train line will go near there? Not sure it will though.

I have only been to Western Springs about once, ever, so don't have a good feel for what it'd be like as a cricket venue, but agree that a train is a must for any major stadium.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

Love Western Springs. Bit harder to get to public transport wise though - maybe the new train line will go near there? Not sure it will though.

Colin Maiden would be damn ideal for me as the home Auckland and NZ cricket test match cricket. I get no benefit either way from Eden Park nor Western Springs to be honest so as to attend more games.

As a rate payer in Auckland, I don't really want any hikes when I can watch NZ play cricket at the Basin, Mount, or Christchurch on my lovely HD tv.

This may sound mean-spirited as a cricket fan in Auckland, but Western Springs is still silly for most Aucklanders even if an Oval.

Victoria Park or even the Domain would make more sense from a logistical point of view. Or a Waterfront Super Stadium that rugby shares.

Just stop scheduling Eden Park for test cricket. We have ovals elsewhere in the country.

 

[Borges]

Hesson about the team: "I'm very confident and very comfortable with where the team's at. To be honest, I wouldn't leave if I felt like the job was sort of half-done or unfulfilled or if I was leaving the team in a difficult position. I'm very comfortable with the players we've got and the leaders and Kane's an exceptional leader. ... I'm very comfortable and I'm looking forward to the Black Caps performing well in the coming years."

About his future plans: "Obviously I enjoyed my time with Star Sports India and that's something that I'd like to do a little bit more in time. But I'm a cricket coach and that's certainly what I'll be looking to do. But not going into a role where I'm potentially away from home nine or ten months a year"

Will miss the changing room, the fun & laughter: Hesson | Cricbuzz.com

 

[Mr Miyagi]

Hesson about the team: "I'm very confident and very comfortable with where the team's at. To be honest, I wouldn't leave if I felt like the job was sort of half-done or unfulfilled or if I was leaving the team in a difficult position. I'm very comfortable with the players we've got and the leaders and Kane's an exceptional leader. ... I'm very comfortable and I'm looking forward to the Black Caps performing well in the coming years."

About his future plans: "Obviously I enjoyed my time with Star Sports India and that's something that I'd like to do a little bit more in time. But I'm a cricket coach and that's certainly what I'll be looking to do. But not going into a role where I'm potentially away from home nine or ten months a year"

Will miss the changing room, the fun & laughter: Hesson | Cricbuzz.com

IPL and the Hundred.

My pick is RCB

 

[Dan]

Otago seriously screwed if that's the case. But hey, Rob Nicol..

Or not.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Time for Otago to throw the bank at Finn Allen, Rachin etc

 

[SteveNZ]

Colin Maiden would be damn ideal for me as the home Auckland and NZ cricket test match cricket. I get no benefit either way from Eden Park nor Western Springs to be honest so as to attend more games.

As a rate payer in Auckland, I don't really want any hikes when I can watch NZ play cricket at the Basin, Mount, or Christchurch on my lovely HD tv.

This may sound mean-spirited as a cricket fan in Auckland, but Western Springs is still silly for most Aucklanders even if an Oval.

Victoria Park or even the Domain would make more sense from a logistical point of view. Or a Waterfront Super Stadium that rugby shares.

Just stop scheduling Eden Park for test cricket. We have ovals elsewhere in the country.

So for a former Aucklander like me, wouldn't Western Springs be a ****ing nightmare for anyone who's not out west or central to get to? East or South, that's a ridiculous journey especially at peak times getting through and out the other side of the city/Spag Junction. North Shore, the same (unless there's a back way I can't remember). Seems to me like that's a logistical nightmare waiting to happen. At least Eden Park is before the city for all but the Shore folk.

I am waiting with the most clenched of buttocks that the Mount gets quality D/N games again next summer and if it gets a D/N Test, I will spontaneously combust. The prospect of the Rising Tide and its plethora of craft beers and dumplings, wander down to a Test then wherever else at the Mount is too good.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

So for a former Aucklander like me, wouldn't Western Springs be a ****ing nightmare for anyone who's not out west or central to get to? East or South, that's a ridiculous journey especially at peak times getting through and out the other side of the city/Spag Junction. North Shore, the same (unless there's a back way I can't remember). Seems to me like that's a logistical nightmare waiting to happen. At least Eden Park is before the city for all but the Shore folk.

I am waiting with the most clenched of buttocks that the Mount gets quality D/N games again next summer and if it gets a D/N Test, I will spontaneously combust. The prospect of the Rising Tide and its plethora of craft beers and dumplings, wander down to a Test then wherever else at the Mount is too good.

As an East Aucklander, Eden Park is beyond the city, and a myriad of public transport far beyond city limits for me.

But I hope your Mount ground gets more. It may lack the history of the Basin, but it is the best day/night ground in the country, and a pretty damn good day one. Either Auckland does it right with Central Government support with a waterfront stadium, or it may as well not bother at all; however I still think Domain and Vic Park have possible utility, but they're not being discussed).

So if it goes Western Springs, as a rate payer I get to pay for it and not get the benefit of it. And the people on the Shore will feel the same way. Probably those out South too. Auckland Council needs to think these things through. I can only speak for myself, and I am sure Shore people and West Aucklanders would loathe Colin Maiden, but it'd be huge for me.

What makes most sense for everyone in Auckland is the central city proper. All Aucklanders can live with that and are used to it. Domain, Vic Park or a Central GOvernemnt funded National Waterfront Stadium. It really isn't that difficult. Even the Blues on a Friday night would get better crowds if playing in the Central City. Major cities build city stadiums and get walk down crowds. Eden Park is not a walk from the city. At all. It is suburbs away. Western Springs suffers the same fault.

 

[SteveNZ]

As an East Aucklander, Eden Park is beyond the city, and a myriad of public transport far beyond city limits for me.

But I hope your Mount ground gets more. It may lack the history of the Basin, but it is the best day/night ground in the country, and a pretty damn good day one. Either Auckland does it right with Central Government support with a waterfront stadium, or it may as well not bother at all; however I still think Domain and Vic Park have possible utility, but they're not being discussed).

So if it goes Western Springs, as a rate payer I get to pay for it and not get the benefit of it. And the people on the Shore will feel the same way. Probably those out South too. Auckland Council needs to think these things through. I can only speak for myself, and I am sure Shore people and West Aucklanders would loathe Colin Maiden, but it'd be huge for me.

What makes most sense for everyone in Auckland is the central city proper. All Aucklanders can live with that and are used to it. Domain, Vic Park or Waterfront. It really isn't that difficult.

Surely not...anywhere East Auckland is head towards Greenlane and keep going, right? No need to touch the city.

The Mount is great, obviously the best lighting system which I hope sets it up for a D/N game some time soon - IDGAF if it's Bangladesh. Was a real shame the England ODI this year was such a **** game, and that the Ashes sucked a lot of the numbers out of the Barmy Army.

Yeah, central city is the best result. As a former Howick person, Colin Maiden sets up well but as you say, Shore or Westies (although who the **** are Westies anymore considering Henderson of all bloody places is now 'city fringe'?) would hate that. Vic Park could never happen, that's a public space. Domain, same thing, Has to be water front and even then they're going to set it up as a rugby/ODI-T20/concert stadium that would be hollow for Tests.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

Surely not...anywhere East Auckland is head towards Greenlane and keep going, right? No need to touch the city.

If you're driving (then you have parking issues). Try it on a public transport route. Or you want to rely on taxis? Have you heard the wait times for uber after games (plus their inflated prices of "on peak" which is basically games :P)

The Mount is great, obviously the best lighting system which I hope sets it up for a D/N game some time soon - IDGAF if it's Bangladesh. Was a real shame the England ODI this year was such a **** game, and that the Ashes sucked a lot of the numbers out of the Barmy Army.

Yeah, central city is the best result. As a former Howick person, Colin Maiden sets up well but as you say, Shore or Westies (although who the **** are Westies anymore considering Henderson of all bloody places is now 'city fringe'?) would hate that. Vic Park could never happen, that's a public space. Domain, same thing, Has to be water front and even then they're going to set it up as a rugby/ODI-T20/concert stadium that would be hollow for Tests.

I don't care how hollow it is for tests (they'd only schedule Aus, Ind and Eng there anyway -which wuld be max 2 tests every 5 years on recent schedules). If in the city, it will get a walk up crowd. It is a huge difference knocking off work 2 hours early and strolling down for half a day of test cricket, than transiting hassle and cost for less than 1 session). It is about accessibility and ease for patrons - it adds to the appeal.

The Basin is a public space, so Domain and Vic Park could work the same. I am being serious. Wellingtonians walk across the Basin as a short cut (they ring the pitch around). Ask a Wngtn if I am wrong - but it is my understanding it is a public thoroughfare (except when a game is on).

 

[Flem274*]

i know for a fact there's been more than a few games played on a sticky wicket at the basin on the weekends after dark