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Thread: Newsflash: Hayden is arrogent

  1. #31
    Request Your Custom Title Now! honestbharani's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    KP reacts, and I'd say, at least with direct reference to the Ashes, he's on the money.
    He is definitely more right than Hayden.
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  2. #32
    Global Moderator Matt79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luckyeddie
    Don't bother working on that technique, Matty. You were just unlucky.
    Although I don't want to fall into the pattern of a certain big Harmison fan who regularly posts on this board seeking to answer a joke with a serious dissertation on 'the serious meaning underlying it', I think Hayden did acknowledge, albeit perhaps privately to himself, that it wasn't just bad luck, but rather an attitudinal problem that was contributing to his slump. He certainly appears to have tried to alter his approach to building innings, and although his new approach is yet to be tested by a line up the quality of England's attack, so far it seems to have worked for him.

    Whether his critics will be satisfied with anything less that Matt holding a press conference and tearfully admitting that he is a flat track bully who is useless against quality bowling on competitive pitches because of his technical/mental/character defects remains to be seen however!
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  3. #33
    Hall of Fame Member FaaipDeOiad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by honestbharani
    He is definitely more right than Hayden.
    I'd say Australia are far too good a team to rely entirely on Warne. It's true of course that in the Ashes they did, but Warne's form since hasn't really been that great, just about average by his standards, and Australia have still won all but one test in that time, with the other being a draw. The issue in the Ashes was that McGrath was injured and Lee, Gillespie and Kasprowicz weren't performing, and MacGill didn't play and Tait was in his first series. Along with the unusually lacklustre batting, it left a huge burden on Warne.

    Since then, we've seen Hayden, Ponting and Hussey carry the batting back to an acceptable level, McGrath come back, and after he lost form and then left the team again Lee had come good as a replacement. Then there's Clark and Gillespie, who had one good series each. Basically, when Warne doesn't perform, Australia usually still win, because there's not a serious reliance on him as a player.

    I don't think England totally rely on Flintoff either, and they are a much better side when he gets good support, but there's no doubt it's a more serious issue when he doesn't play well, particularly with Jones almost never being in the side, and Harmison being so poor in the last couple of years. It's basically Hoggard, Trescothick and nothing else in terms of consistently fit and performing players for England, when you take Flintoff out of the team.

    And, more to the point, if you took both Warne and Flintoff out of the teams for the Ashes, I would think Australia would suffer less due to an able replacement in MacGill, while England would have to alter their entire gameplan.
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  4. #34
    Global Moderator Matt79's Avatar
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    This might go better on the AShes 2007 chatboard, but I was thinking about this, and obviously England were not a one man team during the Ashes, there were several good performers, with Flintoff the standout. But Simon Jones also played out of his skin, while Trescothick, Pieterson were very good and nobody, except maybe Geraint Jones was down. For the Australians Warne obviously performed in the same 'extraordinary' category as Flintoff and S. Jones. Otherwise, Langer, and as a batsman, Ponting, probably 'passed' given the bowling they faced. Clarke wasn't bad til he hurt his back, while McGrath (injury), Gilchrist, Gillespie and Kasprowicz (form) were disappointing (McGrath was disappointing by his standards).

    I think in any series, I don't think its so much whose 'one-man' will play better, but how the best three or four and the worst couple of performers in each team play.


  5. #35
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Mister Wright's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FaaipDeOiad
    ...and Lee, Gillespie and Kasprowicz weren't performing, ...
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  6. #36
    Hall of Fame Member FaaipDeOiad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Wright
    Strike me down and call me Rosie...
    Well, Lee was better than Gillespie and Kasprowicz, but he wasn't bowling brilliantly or anything. He varied between decent and poor. If you look at how he has bowled since the Ashes, there's a huge gulf, and his improvement has taken some of the load off Warne compared to the Ashes.

    I still think he was the right selection choice, mind you.

  7. #37
    Cricket Web Staff Member luckyeddie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt79
    Although I don't want to fall into the pattern of a certain big Harmison fan who regularly posts on this board seeking to answer a joke with a serious dissertation on 'the serious meaning underlying it', I think Hayden did acknowledge, albeit perhaps privately to himself, that it wasn't just bad luck, but rather an attitudinal problem that was contributing to his slump.
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  8. #38
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Mister Wright's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FaaipDeOiad
    Well, Lee was better than Gillespie and Kasprowicz, but he wasn't bowling brilliantly or anything. He varied between decent and poor. If you look at how he has bowled since the Ashes, there's a huge gulf, and his improvement has taken some of the load off Warne compared to the Ashes.

    I still think he was the right selection choice, mind you.
    I was just in utter shock. I could not believe you would come out with such comments after you defended him to the ends of the earth when I was critisising his performances during the Ashes series (which was justiftied).

  9. #39
    Eyes not spreadsheets marc71178's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FaaipDeOiad
    I'd say Australia are far too good a team to rely entirely on Warne.
    So how come they didn't show it?
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  10. #40
    Hall of Fame Member FaaipDeOiad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marc71178
    So how come they didn't show it?
    As I said, they relied on Warne in the Ashes, that doesn't mean they rely on him all the time.

  11. #41
    Hall of Fame Member FaaipDeOiad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Wright
    I was just in utter shock. I could not believe you would come out with such comments after you defended him to the ends of the earth when I was critisising his performances during the Ashes series (which was justiftied).
    I never said that Lee bowled brilliantly in the Ashes, or anything of the sort. What I said was that he bowled well at times, and he did, including some key spells which had a big impact on a couple of games, and that he as a better selection than Kasprowicz for the test side, dating back to the tour of New Zealand, and I think results since bear that out pretty well.

    Overally however his performance in the Ashes was average at best, and he lacked the consistency necessary to take pressure off Warne, as Warne basically went into every innings with the burden of having to take all the wickets on him.

  12. #42
    Request Your Custom Title Now! honestbharani's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FaaipDeOiad
    I'd say Australia are far too good a team to rely entirely on Warne. It's true of course that in the Ashes they did, but Warne's form since hasn't really been that great, just about average by his standards, and Australia have still won all but one test in that time, with the other being a draw. The issue in the Ashes was that McGrath was injured and Lee, Gillespie and Kasprowicz weren't performing, and MacGill didn't play and Tait was in his first series. Along with the unusually lacklustre batting, it left a huge burden on Warne.

    Since then, we've seen Hayden, Ponting and Hussey carry the batting back to an acceptable level, McGrath come back, and after he lost form and then left the team again Lee had come good as a replacement. Then there's Clark and Gillespie, who had one good series each. Basically, when Warne doesn't perform, Australia usually still win, because there's not a serious reliance on him as a player.

    I don't think England totally rely on Flintoff either, and they are a much better side when he gets good support, but there's no doubt it's a more serious issue when he doesn't play well, particularly with Jones almost never being in the side, and Harmison being so poor in the last couple of years. It's basically Hoggard, Trescothick and nothing else in terms of consistently fit and performing players for England, when you take Flintoff out of the team.

    And, more to the point, if you took both Warne and Flintoff out of the teams for the Ashes, I would think Australia would suffer less due to an able replacement in MacGill, while England would have to alter their entire gameplan.
    I meant in the context of the last Ashes. They were severely dependent on Warne in that series.

  13. #43
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Mister Wright's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FaaipDeOiad
    I never said that Lee bowled brilliantly in the Ashes, or anything of the sort. What I said was that he bowled well at times, and he did, including some key spells which had a big impact on a couple of games, and that he as a better selection than Kasprowicz for the test side, dating back to the tour of New Zealand, and I think results since bear that out pretty well.

    Overally however his performance in the Ashes was average at best, and he lacked the consistency necessary to take pressure off Warne, as Warne basically went into every innings with the burden of having to take all the wickets on him.
    That's strange, because I remember you and others telling me I was being far too unfair on Lee when I said he was very average during the Ashes.

  14. #44
    Global Moderator Matt79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luckyeddie
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  15. #45
    Hall of Fame Member FaaipDeOiad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Wright
    That's strange, because I remember you and others telling me I was being far too unfair on Lee when I said he was very average during the Ashes.
    As you were suggesting he didn't deserve to be picked, that he wasn't good enough for test cricket and that he was bowling just as badly as Kasprowicz and Gillespie, yes you were being unfair on him, as you are when you say he's a club standard bowler on flat pitches and so on as well. Nevertheless, Lee's performance in the Ashes wasn't as good as would be expected from a front-line test bowler, at least not enough of the time, and therefore it placed more pressure on Warne.

    Basically, Lee bowled well at times in the Ashes... he bowled well at Lords generally, he bowled well in the second innings at Edgbaston, and he bowled well at Trent Bridge. His performance throughout most of the series was okay, but it was dragged down by some shocking periods like the first innings at Edgbaston and the entire final test.

    As far as I recall, pretty much everyone who defended Lee after the Ashes simply said that he bowled well at times and it was his first series back, but that he needed to improve if he was going to be a good test bowler. As it happened, he did.

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