Which International Team has the strongest tail?

[GotSpin]

Top order 1-3
Middle 4-7
Lower 8-11

 

[Prince EWS]

South Africa 82.41 (Pollock 31.24, Boje 26.00, Steyn 15.00, Ntini 10.17)
India 72.51 (Kumble 17.51, Harbhajan 15.50, Sreesanth 30.00, Patel 9.50)
Australia 63.93 (Warne 16.61, Lee 21.08, Gillespie 18.73, McGrath 7.51)
New Zealand 61.46 (Vettori 25.06, Franklin 16.66, Bond 17.51, Martin 2.23)
England 55.64 (Giles 20.72, Hoggard 7.90, Harmison 11.26, Jones 15.76)
Sri Lanka 53.77 (Vass 21.23, Bandara 15.50, Muralitharan 12.54, Malinga 4.50)
Pakistan 49.32 (Razzaq 28.83, Shoaib 10.74, Asif 4.50, Kaneria 5.25)
West Indies 44.75 (Ramdin 24.00, Edwards 4.22, Collins 6.41, Collymore 9.12)
Bangladesh 40.50 (Rafique 21.82, Mashrafe 8.57, Enamul 4.00, Shahadat 6.11)

India slighty increased by Sreesanth's average which I'm sure will come down. South Africa far and away leaders.

 

[BoyBrumby]

South Africa 82.41 (Pollock 31.24, Boje 26.00, Steyn 15.00, Ntini 10.17)
India 72.51 (Kumble 17.51, Harbhajan 15.50, Sreesanth 30.00, Patel 9.50)
Australia 63.93 (Warne 16.61, Lee 21.08, Gillespie 18.73, McGrath 7.51)
New Zealand 61.46 (Vettori 25.06, Franklin 16.66, Bond 17.51, Martin 2.23)
England 55.64 (Giles 20.72, Hoggard 7.90, Harmison 11.26, Jones 15.76)
Sri Lanka 53.77 (Vass 21.23, Bandara 15.50, Muralitharan 12.54, Malinga 4.50)
Pakistan 49.32 (Razzaq 28.83, Shoaib 10.74, Asif 4.50, Kaneria 5.25)
West Indies 44.75 (Ramdin 24.00, Edwards 4.22, Collins 6.41, Collymore 9.12)
Bangladesh 40.50 (Rafique 21.82, Mashrafe 8.57, Enamul 4.00, Shahadat 6.11)

India slighty increased by Sreesanth's average which I'm sure will come down. South Africa far and away leaders.

Just shows that naked stats don't tell the full story sometimes. Ntini's average is better than Hoggy's & Jonah's is almost exactly twice his, but I know who I'd fancy to stick around with a proper batter.

16.61 is actually pretty awful for a player of Warne's obvious ability with the bat too.

 

[adharcric]

Those numbers really don't mean much.

 

[dontcloseyoureyes]

I don't see how, if the tails were as above, South Africa aren't first? Pollock and Boje at 8 and 9, who both have multiple international hundreds, puts them a cut above.

 

[wpdavid]

I don't see how, if the tails were as above, South Africa aren't first? Pollock and Boje at 8 and 9, who both have multiple international hundreds, puts them a cut above.

If we're trying to identify who now has the strongest tail, then recentish form would be the crucial factor. It would be interesting to see Pollock's average over the last couple of years, as compared to his whole test career. Likewise Warne, Lee & Gillespie.

 

[Matt79]

QUOTE
South Africa 82.41 (Pollock 31.24, Boje 26.00, Steyn 15.00, Ntini 10.17)
QUOTE
What's Nel's average? He's surely ahead of Steyn in the pecking order as a bowler. When considering Boje's average, you need to consider the runs he concedes through the averageness of his bowling.

NZ or Australia at the moment for me. Warne's average doesn't reflect his quality with the bat when needed. When not needed he comes in and goes the tonk - and given the number of overs he bowls he shouldn't feel obliged to guts it out if he's coming in with the score 300+. When the chips are down he's demonstrated he can apply himself ie during the Ashes. Lee's average is 21 but it would be considerably higher in the last twelve months. And nobody's mentioning McGrath! He has a test 50 you know!!

 

[Magrat Garlick]

If we're trying to identify who now has the strongest tail, then recentish form would be the crucial factor. It would be interesting to see Pollock's average over the last couple of years, as compared to his whole test career. Likewise Warne, Lee & Gillespie.

Since October 2003:

Warne 16.00
Lee 21.61
Gillespie 24.13 (though the double boosts his career average by 3 runs and his two-and-a-half year average by 7.

Pollock 22.43 (with only one fifty)
Boje 28.78 (two fifties; one v Streak, Chigumbura, Mpofu, Cremer, Blignaut)

 

[adharcric]

QUOTE
South Africa 82.41 (Pollock 31.24, Boje 26.00, Steyn 15.00, Ntini 10.17)
QUOTE
What's Nel's average? He's surely ahead of Steyn in the pecking order as a bowler. When considering Boje's average, you need to consider the runs he concedes through the averageness of his bowling.

NZ or Australia at the moment for me. Warne's average doesn't reflect his quality with the bat when needed. When not needed he comes in and goes the tonk - and given the number of overs he bowls he shouldn't feel obliged to guts it out if he's coming in with the score 300+. When the chips are down he's demonstrated he can apply himself ie during the Ashes. Lee's average is 21 but it would be considerably higher in the last twelve months. And nobody's mentioning McGrath! He has a test 50 you know!!

Twice there you've brought bowling ability into the discussion, which shouldn't be done. We're talking of the strongest tails batting-wise here, not bowling-wise ... then we would be discussing the strongest bowling attacks. Warne's bowling well and Boje's not doing so doesn't make the former a better lower-order batsman than the latter. Nevertheless, I'd agree that the Aussies have the best current-form tail in Warne-Lee-Gillespie-McGrath. Again, all of a sudden Aussie fans will place Dizzy in the Aussie tail again rather than Clark (who was the regular in the SA series) simply because he's scored that double-ton.

Overall, South Africa with Pollock and Boje are better. India would rise to the top if they ever played a Pathan-Kumble-Harbhajan-Sreesanth tail, which is sensible on the subcontinent but not likely with this new 5-bowler fashion trend. New Zealand are perennially strong-tailed with a team based on all-rounders and the likes of Vettori regularly leading the lower-order.

 

[Langeveldt]

pah

New Zealand

 

[Matt79]

Twice there you've brought bowling ability into the discussion, which shouldn't be done. We're talking of the strongest tails batting-wise here, not bowling-wise ... then we would be discussing the strongest bowling attacks. Warne's bowling well and Boje's not doing so doesn't make the former a better lower-order batsman than the latter. Nevertheless, I'd agree that the Aussies have the best current-form tail in Warne-Lee-Gillespie-McGrath. Again, all of a sudden Aussie fans will place Dizzy in the Aussie tail again rather than Clark (who was the regular in the SA series) simply because he's scored that double-ton.

But if you don't select the normal best tail, or the most regularly played tail (for NZ given Bond is never fit) its a pretty rubbish conversation.

My reference to Boje's bowling was an admitted aside but I don't think my argument depended on it. And outside of the strict confines of the question as posed in this thread its obviously relevant to the larger point, that having a strong tail is useless if they can't take 20 wickets in a match reasonably cheaply.

If you agree that Gillespie's in the best XI, then its a non-issue that I'm discussing him.

My reference to Warne's bowling was simply to say that I don't believe he's always batted with the focus of keeping his wicket and boosting his average - and that given his heavy workload and success with the ball, I find it difficult to criticise that attitude, especially as when required he often does produce more substantial innings.

 

[adharcric]

But if you don't select the normal best tail, or the most regularly played tail (for NZ given Bond is never fit) its a pretty rubbish conversation.

My reference to Boje's bowling was an admitted aside but I don't think my argument depended on it. And outside of the strict confines of the question as posed in this thread its obviously relevant to the larger point, that having a strong tail is useless if they can't take 20 wickets in a match reasonably cheaply.

If you agree that Gillespie's in the best XI, then its a non-issue that I'm discussing him.

My reference to Warne's bowling was simply to say that I don't believe he's always batted with the focus of keeping his wicket and boosting his average - and that given his heavy workload and success with the ball, I find it difficult to criticise that attitude, especially as when required he often does produce more substantial innings.

Oh definitely, I wasn't really saying you're wrong about any of that. Most of what I was saying was general commentary on the issue apart from the Boje comment.

 

[Jono]

SA, NZ (if they play Mills and Bond) and then Aus probably. Though the difference between these two teams isn't very much so they're interchangeable.

 

[honestbharani]

India.




Because they will have AA in the tail.

 

[marc71178]

But hb, that's only because he is so supremely good that he doesn't like to bat up the order since it deprives the lesser players like Dravid and Tendulkar the chance to even face a ball!