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Thread: ****OFFICIAL**** Lara vs Tendulkar Debate Thread

  1. #1141
    Bun
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cevno View Post
    It also shows the times when he has been dismissed by Tsotsobe and Harris or scored runs against them?

    These type of stats are useless after an extent.
    Yeah, but pretty sure that'll enhance their stats

    Quote Originally Posted by hang on View Post
    didn't think to do so. will definitely enhance tendulkar's stats against pure pace. but i suppose one should also include harmison (he was rapid in the mid noughties), which would also enhance lara's stats, by virtue of that gargantuan and amazing 400 no.
    Yeah, but Harmy is nowhere near Steyn's league in overall quality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post
    The reason using longevity like this is flawed is because often when a player starts/finishes his career is for reasons most definitely to do with things other than their quality as pure players. Certainly applies to Lara.
    Starts maybe, but finishes? no...

    In case you missed it, Tendulkar is leading the ICC rankings (with Kallis) in his 22nd year of international cricket.

    So in this case, it's clear Tendulkar is continuing because he has a right to.

    With every passing test, Tendulkar is pulling away rapidly.

    (And at the end of Eng series, Tendulkar would've played as many matches more than Lara, as Sir Don did more than Andy Guantanamo Bay)
    Last edited by Bun; 09-07-2011 at 01:03 AM.

  2. #1142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cevno View Post
    This.

    Tendulkar was clearly ahead of the competition in the 1990's by a pretty decent margin ,despite starting so young-

    Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo


    Since then he has only added to his legacy despite a bit of blip in his form early in the 2000's when some not so great batsman were boosting their averages too.
    And since 1st Jan 2000 is just only behind Kallis in terms of averages of players who have played 25+ matches -

    Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

    He has had 2 great careers rolled into one. To say that longevity does not matter in this case is bizzare.

    He has almost reinvented his game after going from a stroke player ,to more of a accumulator now and has excelled at both types of batting styles when his body told him too. Can't remember anyone in history of the game who changed his game at such a level to suit his body and still mantained the high level of excellence .

    Even though since people remember the recent avatar more ,he may have lost some Flamboyance points or points based on looking good etc.. when in fact in his prime at the ground he was as good as any batsman there has been in the last 2/3 decades to watch in terms of any aspect of his batting.
    Yep,

    a 90 test career is something which is hailed as a long one..

    and tendulkar has played double that...

    perhaps people have just got numbed seeing these numbers... and doesn't really grasp them...

    and lol, we still get people saying "tendulkar plays just for the records" rubbish.

  3. #1143
    Hall of Fame Member honestbharani's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shankar View Post
    The problem is using overall stats gives a wrong picture. It's better to look at it individually

    Vs Donald
    Now both of them average in the low thirties. However in Tendulkar's case this is misleading because he was weirdly getting out to Cronje during this period (he got him as many times as Donald i.e. 5 times). Now if we use the other measure of who reached the higher heights it clearly seems to be Tendulkar. Lara's highest score in 20 innings is 83. Whereas Tendulkar has a couple of hundreds and a 97. The 169 in Cape town and the 97 in Mumbai were utterly brilliant knocks - two of the best ever played against Donald. So I'd say Tendulkar comes out on top by that measure.

    Vs McGrath
    Lara clearly has the better body of work against McGrath and comes out on top. However Tendulkar's average needs to be put in context.

    Tendulkar unfortunately had only 2 proper contests against McGrath - the '99 series in Aus where he was MOS and the '01 series where he averaged closed to 50 and was crucial to India winning that series. There was another meeting in 2004 - but Tendulkar had been suffering from the Tennis elbow problem and literally could only pick up and use his bat only 3 days before the third test match. It was a desperate attempt to save the series. His performances in this series are what bring his average down. It's a huge shame that we couldn't see as many contests of McGrath with Sachin as with Lara.
    You know, the same could be said for Donald Vs Lara.. How many times did he play apart from those 5 tests again?
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    In the end, I think it's so utterly, incomprehensibly boring. There is so much context behind each innings of cricket that dissecting statistics into these small samples is just worthless. No-one has ever been faced with the same situation in which they come out to bat as someone else. Ever.
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  4. #1144
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    Quote Originally Posted by hang on View Post
    quite. but still fun to look at!

    here are tendulkar's stats "against" the real fast men (apologies if anyone has been left out):

    Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

    now, also including mcgrath and pollock, who even though not that fast, were superb:

    Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo
    Heh, bloody heck that's just solid!!

    and to say most of those came in the 90s and including his early years when he was hardly a teenager!


  5. #1145
    Hall of Fame Member honestbharani's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bun View Post
    Yep,

    a 90 test career is something which is hailed as a long one..

    and tendulkar has played double that...

    perhaps people have just got numbed seeing these numbers... and doesn't really grasp them...

    and lol, we still get people saying "tendulkar plays just for the records" rubbish.
    now, reg. your last statement, who exactly has said that in the recent debate?


    We have had very good posters offer very reasonable explanations why they choose Lara over Sachin (and Sachin over Lara, I should add) and suddenly you have to jump in with words no one has said here and hence completely irrelevant.

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    and, carrying on the fun, here's lara "against" the real fastmen:

    Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

    including pollock and mcgrath:

    Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo
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    International Debutant shankar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by honestbharani View Post
    You know, the same could be said for Donald Vs Lara.. How many times did he play apart from those 5 tests again?
    I don't understand which part of my post you're referring to...

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    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bun View Post
    Yeah, but pretty sure that'll enhance their stats



    Yeah, but Harmy is nowhere near Steyn's league in overall quality.



    Starts maybe, but finishes? no...

    In case you missed it, Tendulkar is leading the ICC rankings (with Kallis) in his 22nd year of international cricket.

    So in this case, it's clear Tendulkar is continuing because he has a right to.

    With every passing test, Tendulkar is pulling away rapidly.

    (And at the end of Eng series, Tendulkar would've played as many matches more than Lara, as Sir Don did more than Andy Guantanamo Bay)
    Don't you think, given the way Lara was playing at the end of his Test career, that he could have played for some time longer and done extremely well? That would suggest that his retirement was not triggered by decline in his quality as a batsman.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bun View Post
    Heh, bloody heck that's just solid!!

    and to say most of those came in the 90s and including his early years when he was hardly a teenager!
    did it more for the fun of it, bun. it is a just a rough pointer. as pointed out here, it is difficult to separate out how exactly anyone has played against certain players but a lot of factors are not taken into account. form of the bowlers in question, pitch conditions, supporting batsmen, form of the batsman in question, did he actually get out to the bowlers in question, how many runs he actually scored off the bowlers in question, were catches dropped etc....

    essentially, use with caution!

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    Quote Originally Posted by hang on View Post
    and, carrying on the fun, here's lara "against" the real fastmen:

    Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

    including pollock and mcgrath:

    Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo
    lol. so much for the lara doing well against best bowlers theory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post
    Don't you think, given the way Lara was playing at the end of his Test career, that he could have played for some time longer and done extremely well? That would suggest that his retirement was not triggered by decline in his quality as a batsman.
    completely agree. thought he still had a couple of good years in him.

  12. #1152
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    Any reason why poor Murali,Warne and Kumble are kept out of this statistical nitpicking or Just the normal CW obsession with seamers?

  13. #1153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post
    Don't you think, given the way Lara was playing at the end of his Test career, that he could have played for some time longer and done extremely well? That would suggest that his retirement was not triggered by decline in his quality as a batsman.
    He's the best judge of himself. I believe he would've played on had he thought he was good enough to.

    @honestbarani
    I didn't say anyone here said that...

    All you need to look at any of cricinfo articles on tendulkar, and invariably you'll come across this

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bun View Post
    He's the best judge of himself. I believe he would've played on had he thought he was good enough to.

    @honestbarani
    I didn't say anyone here said that...

    All you need to look at any of cricinfo articles on tendulkar, and invariably you'll come across this
    Hence, as I said, irrelevant to this debate. I also know a number of cricinfo comments says "Lara is not in Sachin's league and that Sachin is better than Bradman".. No use pointing those out here..

  15. #1155
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    Quote Originally Posted by hang on View Post
    and, carrying on the fun, here's lara "against" the real fastmen:

    Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

    including pollock and mcgrath:

    Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo
    Slightly modified your second link (guess it was giving the same results as first)

    including McGrath and pollock,

    Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

    Absolutely top record there, but better than Tendulkar? heck nO!

    and to say, Tendulkar faced additional two godly bowlers in Ambrose and Walsh, (and Steyn too perhaps?? Not sure)

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