****OFFICIAL**** Lara vs Tendulkar Debate Thread

[MrIncredible]

Yes thats what i was implying in to point 2 "Tendy averages better than Lara vs good/great attacks, when i made this thread a couple years ago. Read back points 3,4.5 & 6 again.


On the stats you got their, you have some mistakes, firstly you have to look at these good/great attacks at their peaks.

Australia good/great attacks isn't just limited to McGrath/Warne also. 91/92 with McDermott, Hughes & 2007/08 with Lee/Clark with be a good attack. Only 2003/04 Tendy faced an average attack down under.

When looking at Donald, especially when looking at Lara's record. AD peak was 92 & 98/99. The Donald Lara faced in 2001, although still solid was not at his peak. Plus when you talk about SAs bowling its the Donald/Pollock combo.


So when i say Tendy averages more than Lara againts good/great attacks its not OVERALL career - Home & awat. Its average 40+ in a series againts these great bowler, Tendulkar did it more so than Lara, especially in the opponents back-yard.

Lara

vs Australia

'92-93 av 58.25 (A)
'95 av 44.00 (H)
96 av 32.88 (A)
'99 av 91.00 (H)
'00 av 32.10 (A)
'05 av 56.37 (A)

vs Pakistan

'93 av 43.00 (H)
97 av 21.50 (A)

vs South Africa

'98 av 31.00 (A)
'01 av 40.00 (H)

6 out of 10 series of 40+. 4 @ home and 2 away.


Tendulkar

vs Aust.

'91 av 46.00 (A)
'00 av 46.00 (A)
'01 av 50.66 (H)
'04 av 17.5 (H)

vs Pak.

'90 av 35.83 (A)
'98 av 42.75 (H)
* Also played a single test in the Asian test championship and av. 4.5 vs Pakistan

vs South Africa

'92 av 33.66 (A)
'96 av 27.66 (H)
'96 av 40.16 (A)
'00 av 36.50 (H)

5 out of 10 test series with 40+ average. 2 @ Home 3 away

I left out one-off tests that either player played against the above attacks.

 

[aussie]

First Lara faced Hughes and McDermott in his first overseas series and slaughtered them.

Second u every series Lara has played down under have been against ful strength Aussie attacks:
92-93 Warne, Hughes, Mcdermott, 96 Mcgrath, Warne, Reiffel, 00 Warne, Gillespie, Mcgrath 05 mcgrath, Warne,, Lee, macgill. Lara never faced lesser attacks in Australia like Tendulkar did in 2004 and in 2007.

Yea, but unfortunately if you want to just limit it to just McGrath/Warne - in 96/97 & 2000/01 he was conquered. Plus if it wasn't for theat his great double in adelaide. He generally struggled in 05/06 as well.

Third the point u make about Donald not being at his peak is completely irrelevant because in 98 Lara wasnt at his peak either and from my research.

I have heard that argument before that after Lara prolific 95 series in ENG, that from NZ 96 to SA 98 Lara was out of form. Thats is not accurate, the great man was just exposed technically againts some great attacks.

The only period i would say Lara was a bit out of form (although i dont think it was significant either). Was the 2000 tour to ENG, after he just returned from a year away from the game.

Thats how Lara plays really he would score 1, 20, 5 1, 2. 400. He was not as consistent as Tendy againts the good/great attacks.

Tendulkar has only ever faced full peak Aussie attacks on 7 occasions compared to lara who faced them atleast 20 times. By peak i mean Mcwarne.

Thats not Tendy's fault though, that IND generally play 3 test series vs AUS or on overseas tours in general.

Again their is no reason you need to limit good/great attacks of AUS as just McGrath/Warne. The AUS attacks that Tendy faced in 91/92, 2007/08 were also good. Only 2003/04 was average.

 

[aussie]

Lara

vs Australia

'92-93 av 58.25 (A)
'95 av 44.00 (H)
96 av 32.88 (A)
'99 av 91.00 (H)
'00 av 32.10 (A)
'05 av 56.37 (A)

vs Pakistan

'93 av 43.00 (H)
97 av 21.50 (A)

vs South Africa

'98 av 31.00 (A)
'01 av 40.00 (H)

6 out of 10 series of 40+. 4 @ home and 2 away.


Tendulkar

vs Aust.

'91 av 46.00 (A)
'00 av 46.00 (A)
'01 av 50.66 (H)
'04 av 17.5 (H)

vs Pak.

'90 av 35.83 (A)
'98 av 42.75 (H)
* Also played a single test in the Asian test championship and av. 4.5 vs Pakistan

vs South Africa

'92 av 33.66 (A)
'96 av 27.66 (H)
'96 av 40.16 (A)
'00 av 36.50 (H)

5 out of 10 test series with 40+ average. 2 @ Home 3 away

I left out one-off tests that either player played against the above attacks.

No sir, i think you have misintepreted point 2 all the while. I was never talking about records @ home againts the good/great attacks. But runs away from home againts the good/great attacks.

Point 2 basically is fleshed out in points 3 & 4.

 

[aussie]

How very interesting.

Tendulkar > Lara

Tada!

Cut it out yo. What kind of message is that to that new poster?. Just because many on CW have the idelogical gridlock againts arguing about Warne/Murali, Lara/Tendy for various reasons - that doesn't mean you should try to make a mockery of the debate.

Outside the CW world, many people still have heated debates about this, so you better recognise...

 

[Smith]

Cut it out yo. What kind of message is that to that new poster?. Just because many on CW have the idelogical gridlock againts arguing about Warne/Murali, Lara/Tendy for various reasons - that doesn't mean you should try to make a mockery of the debate.

Outside the CW world, many people still have heated debates about this, so you better recognise...

:joker:

 

[MrIncredible]

No sir, i think you have misintepreted point 2 all the while. I was never talking about records @ home againts the good/great attacks. But runs away from home againts the good/great attacks.

Point 2 basically is fleshed out in points 3 & 4.

The point u made about Tendulkar being better away is a bit valid but the point about him being better than Lara (overall) against the great bowling attacks is not as u clearly see.

U obviously know very little about Lara Aussie. Lara's career was one of thirds. Great debut til around 96, poor 97 to 01, great '01 to retirement.

The Aussie attacks Tendy faced home and away lately are by no means poor but dont have a patch on the ones Lara faced for the majority of his career.

Tendulkar faced poor Aussie attacks in 04 and 97-98 in India. Lara never did.

 

[MrIncredible]

Cut it out yo. What kind of message is that to that new poster?. Just because many on CW have the idelogical gridlock againts arguing about Warne/Murali, Lara/Tendy for various reasons - that doesn't mean you should try to make a mockery of the debate.

Outside the CW world, many people still have heated debates about this, so you better recognise...

Thank u Aussie. I actually like the intellectual well thought out debate that we are having rather than the ******** ones im used to. i have Indian friends who swears Tendulkar is the best cricketer of all time. Then there are the west Indians who think Lara is better than Bradman. For me its lara over tendulkar .

 

[Smith]

So who's the winner?

 

[Athlai]

Jesse Ryder

 

[Smith]

Jesse Ryder

By a barrel and half easily.

 

[MrIncredible]

it's not about the winner for me anyway. Its about having a sensible debate about 2 top ten batsmen and respecting the points of either debater. I certainly respect the point Aussie makes about Tendy away to respectible attacks and i would hope that he respects the point i made that overall Lara was better against the better attacks.

 

[Furball]

The AUS attacks that Tendy faced in 91/92, 2007/08 were also good. Only 2003/04 was average.

Disagree. When half the attack is Brad Hogg and Shaun Tait/a not yet ready Mitchell Johnson, then that's not a good attack.

 

[pasag]

How very interesting.

How very interesting.

Tendulkar > Lara

Tada!

:joker:

So who's the winner?

The whole reason we have this thread and the Murali vs Warne thread is so people can freely discuss the topic to death without it spreading to other threads and annoying everyone else. If you don't like it, don't open the thread.

 

[aussie]

The point u made about Tendulkar being better away is a bit valid but the point about him being better than Lara (overall) against the great bowling attacks is not as u clearly see.

Well point 2 was never a general point towards their overall records home & away againts good/great attacks. More so towards Tendy away average, as i said in point 3:

Tendulkar is far more versatile than Lara overall and this is indicated by the fact that while their home averages are about the same (with Lara having a slight adavantage), Tendulkar has a better away average.

Scoring runs againts top attacks in their own back-yard, is always worth more than doing so, in your own conditions.

U obviously know very little about Lara Aussie. Lara's career was one of thirds. Great debut til around 96, poor 97 to 01, great '01 to retirement.

As i said, this argument is old & i dont agree with it.

How could Lara have been poor between 97-01 when he destroyed AUS in 99, that fabolous series in SRI?

By saying that also, you are also implying that McGrath failing him all those times, he was bowling a Lara out of form?. Surely you don't believe that.

Fact after his proific period from his 277 to ENG 96, the great man was just exposed technically againts those good/great attacks. Thus he career settled in to very familiar pattern in which he would score 0,5, 2, 20, 1, 400

The Aussie attacks Tendy faced home and away lately are by no means poor but dont have a patch on the ones Lara faced for the majority of his career.

Tendulkar faced poor Aussie attacks in 04 and 97-98 in India. Lara never did.

All this is true, although the point as i saying was never really targeted to home records. Both have done equally well vs AUS overall no doubt.

But even so, its not in Lara's favour since he was conquered by McGrath/Warne & the generally good AUS attacks in all his tours since 92/93.

Tendy may not have faced McGrath/Warne in AUS outside 99/00. But that fact than in his only battle with them down under, Tendy averaged 46 & looked more assured than Lara vs them in all his 3 tours is pretty significant.

 

[aussie]

Disagree. When half the attack is Brad Hogg and Shaun Tait/a not yet ready Mitchell Johnson, then that's not a good attack.

India @ home with Kumble/Harbhajan was considered a good attack, AUS to WI in 91 with McDermott/Hughes was then touted to be a good attack to ruffle the great WI, PAK to WI 93 with only Wasim/Waqar was a good attack, AUS in the 30s with O'Reilly/Grimmett was a good attack etc...

Although the back-up was not quality. Lee & Clark was certainly in 2007/08 was certainly in peak form - and good enough for an Indian batting-lineup going into that series who had the question mark of - "age" around it.

 

[MrIncredible]

Well point 2 was never a general point towards their overall records home & away againts good/great attacks. More so towards Tendy away average, as i said in point 3:



Scoring runs againts top attacks in their own back-yard, is always worth more than doing so, in your own conditions.




As i said, this argument is old & i dont agree with it.

How could Lara have been poor between 97-01 when he destroyed AUS in 99, that fabolous series in SRI?

By saying that also, you are also implying that McGrath failing him all those times, he was bowling a Lara out of form?. Surely you don't believe that.

Fact after his proific period from his 277 to ENG 96, the great man was just exposed technically againts those good/great attacks. Thus he career settled in to very familiar pattern in which he would score 0,5, 2, 20, 1, 400

The Aussie attacks Tendy faced home and away lately are by no means poor but dont have a patch on the ones Lara faced for the majority of his career.



All this is true, although the point as i saying was never really targeted to home records. Both have done equally well vs AUS overall no doubt.

But even so, its not in Lara's favour since he was conquered by McGrath/Warne & the generally good AUS attacks in all his tours since 92/93.

.

Tendy may not have faced McGrath/Warne in AUS outside 99/00. But that fact than in his only battle with them down under, Tendy averaged 46 & looked more assured than Lara vs them in all his 3 tours is pretty significant.

That only happened once in his career please dont over blow it out of proportion. Lara got conquered in 96 and 00 I'll give u that but unlike Tendy he never got a chance to 'breathe' so to speak against ne lesser Aussie attacks in Australia. Also Lara did average 56 against them 2005. Granted he scored most of his runs (226) in the final test but this isnt unlike Tendy who scored 241 and 60 not out (out of 383) in 2004 in the last test of a 4 match series and against a relatively poor Aussie lineup

Scoring runs away is more valuable away but its not like Tendy set the world a light away to the greats. As i showed b4 in ten test series away to the great attacks Tendy averaged over 40 3 times, Lara 2. But then Tendy for whatever reason struggled mightily at home and Lara smoked the greats at home. Facing a peak Waqar in 93 on West Indian wkts was not ez. Facing Gillespie, Warne and peak Mcgrath at home on West Indian wks is not ez. Being in the worst form of yyour life and still averaging 40 against a lesser but still dangerous donald was not ez Aussie. Lara is greater overall than Tendulkar bottom line.

 

[honestbharani]

That only happened once in his career please dont over blow it out of proportion. Lara got conquered in 96 and 00 I'll give u that but unlike Tendy he never got a chance to 'breathe' so to speak against ne lesser Aussie attacks in Australia. Also Lara did average 56 against them 2005. Granted he scored most of his runs (226) in the final test but this isnt unlike Tendy who scored 241 and 60 not out (out of 383) in 2004 in the last test of a 4 match series and against a relatively poor Aussie lineup

Scoring runs away is more valuable away but its not like Tendy set the world a light away to the greats. As i showed b4 in ten test series away to the great attacks Tendy averaged over 40 3 times, Lara 2. But then Tendy for whatever reason struggled mightily at home and Lara smoked the greats at home. Facing a peak Waqar in 93 on West Indian wkts was not ez. Facing Gillespie, Warne and peak Mcgrath at home on West Indian wks is not ez. Being in the worst form of yyour life and still averaging 40 against a lesser but still dangerous donald was not ez Aussie. Lara is greater overall than Tendulkar bottom line.

That 2005 series was one of the worst umpiring displays I have ever seen against a single batsman.


Honestly, he never looked like getting out ever in that series. There were a couple of great catches by Hayden, I think and then there were the howlers and the only other innings was perhaps that 226...

 

[MrIncredible]

I agree with u Honest but if im being honest (sorry for the play on words) tendy did receive his fair share of shockers in the 04 series in Oz (although it still was agaisnt a poor Oz attack

 

[honestbharani]

I agree with u Honest but if im being honest (sorry for the play on words) tendy did receive his fair share of shockers in the 04 series in Oz (although it still was agaisnt a poor Oz attack

yeah he did in 2003-04.. And I am Indian.. I watched every ball... But I still maintain that the 2005 stuff to Lara was worse.


He got a shocker in Brisbane, did Sachin but I don't rermember any other bad decision against him??? He was in the worst form though, during that series... Says a lot for him that he managed a 241* and a 194* in that form...

 

[bagapath]

70s pacino or 80s de niro?