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****OFFICIAL**** Lara vs Tendulkar Debate Thread

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Fade to grey

Very good article on the current form & supposed decline of these two legends:

Peter Roebuck

May 20, 2006

Sportsmen are a breed apart. Elsewhere, youthful genius may mature into withering mastery. Playwrights, composers, sculptors, thinkers and artists may pass through various stages, exploring their gift, challenging orthodoxy, reaching high, sinking low and then emerging with something gained and the world still at their feet. Although suffering from a sense of impending doom, as all such talents must, they know that the future spreads out before them and that they can continue to pursue their gift till they breathe their last. It is a privilege unknown in sport.

Among novelists and musicians, the later work may be their finest, a culmination of everything they have gathered along the way. Age smiles upon them. Passing years add weight to the light touch of youth. Although the rhymes and tunes may not come so easily, still they are awaiting discovery. Hope springs eternal. Often the mature artist is more satisfying than the promising nouveau because he or she does not try so hard to impress.

In their early incarnations, gifted writers may try farce, comedy, tragedy, drama. Knowing no containment, resisting all restraint, they express themselves in various forms. Later they start to contemplate their legacy, and before it is too late, before they go the way of all flesh, they set out to tell the world the things they know. Age's authority allows them to unleash their hidden power. Sportsmen cannot take these steps. It must all happen at once, and so every career moves along at a pace that permits no reflection. There is no final word, just an ending that not even genius can resist.

The Tempest was a profound statement of Shakespeare's acquired understanding. Arguably, he cast himself in the play, speaking as the bereft philosopher, the sagacious observer, passing on his experiences, conveying his insights while time permitted. But then he was a man of the mind. Maturity was his friend. The thickening of the body was an irrelevance.

Tomorrow does not exist in athletic endeavours. Sportsmen must find their truest expression at once. They are exposed and then eliminated before life's taxes have been paid. Sportsmen miss much through not being able to grow old gracefully, on the field at any rate. Always they must be young. When the search begins for the contemplated form, their days are almost over. Sportsmen envy other performers this precious gift of time.



Brian Lara and Sachin Tendulkar enjoy no such luxury. To them, the mastery that they have known, the glorious feeling of the game flowing through them without encumbrance, the sensation they want to capture and know forever, the feeling others seek and find only in teasing acquaintance, must these days seem as fleeting as a thought. Most sportsmen resemble the cicada, some species of which stay underground for 15 years and then emerge for six weeks of loud and glorious life before passing into the night.

Nothing lasts long in sport. Always there is today and, for the lucky ones, tomorrow, and then it is over. Not even the batting geniuses of the age can turn back the clock. And it all happens in a flash. A sporting day can seem to last forever; a career can pass like a child's frown. Only records last forever. That is why sportsmen take them so seriously. They prove they existed, mattered, could play a bit. They prove it was worth all that damn trouble.

Never mind that it has been 15 years since Lara and Tendulkar started to mesmerise the world. Never mind that it has been a long time and many extraordinary deeds have been done. No one is ready for the end. Always the player yearns for more. That is why they come back, the boxers and the tennis players, those who can because the decision belongs to them. It is not money, or not just the money, it is yearning. But the feeling does not come back because it depends upon things that change, muscles that deteriorate, eyes that deceive. Sportsmen do not often lose the desire. They slow down or fall apart.

But the ageing player may not sense any difference. In a way, that is the devil of it. Age creeps up on sportsmen. It is not that a curtain comes down upon a career. Sport is not as sudden or as gentle as that. Rather it is a slow process, a gradual fading. Nor can the player tell that the slide has begun. After all, he has known bad patches before, heard a thousand concerned whispers, and has learned not to panic but instead to withdraw into himself in search of the old powers. Great sportsmen listen to themselves.

Age brings understanding to the thinker, the craftsman, the artist. To most sportsmen, it brings defeat. To them, time is not a friend bestowing gifts, bringing wisdom and providing an opportunity to hone skills, but a reminder that the eternal present of athletic life is the merest illusion. Almost from the start, their clock is ticking. Children may deem themselves immortal. Once whiskers start to grow, the sportsman knows that already time is running out.



Now Lara and Tendulkar find themselves battering their brains in an attempt to goad renewal from tired minds and weary limbs. Everyone talks about lost genius, in Lara's case even squandered genius, but this is neither right nor fair. Although the sporting gift is not to be trifled with, it is not immutable. Like beauty, it is transient for it lasts as long as youth itself.

It is strange that so much is expected of sporting genius, as if God has transposed not an astonishing talent but his entire self. Sportsmen are not alone in trying to prolong the youth whose passing signals the end of their most joyous period. Supporters, too, expect their champions to stay the same, like cartoon characters, a requirement that is not imposed upon sons and daughters. Perhaps, they think sportsmen live on another planet.

Lara could not advance unchanged into adulthood let alone eternity. He could not forever be the imp slashing misbegotten Australians around Sydney. It is not easy to score runs or bat brilliantly for days. He just made it look easy and then was blamed when his powers deserted him. Nor is Tendulkar a machine or still the tousled boy who used to arrive at Shivaji Park every dawn. He is a fully grown man with much on his mind. To expect him to bat the same way, the fearless way, as he did in Perth all those years ago, is to undertake an exercise in futility. In between, he has discovered the perils of life and the pressures of expectation. His body is heavier, his eyes are not as sharp, his nerve is less reliable. He is human, a fact that ought to provoke not regret but a greater appreciation of his feats and carriage.

Of course, the genius of Lara and Tendulkar has passed. Arguably it happened several years ago and was camouflaged by occasional rallies from the quixotic Lara, and the sound technique and devotion to duty of the Indian. Their exceptional gifts were sustained by alert eyes, unfailing judgment, fresh minds, bold decisions and swift responses. Until recently, most of Test cricket's mightiest innings had been played by young men. Don Bradman, Len Hutton, Hanif Mohammad, Garry Sobers, and Lara himself were in their early twenties when they constructed their masterpieces.

Nothing lasts forever. As they enter their last phase, Lara and Tendulkar try to accommodate both their particular talent and their reduced selves. Lesser players passed this way long ago. Greatness demands intensity. Mediocrity requires endless scrutiny. Struggling players know about nuts and bolts. For them, it is not just a matter of switching on the engine. Long before, they had to take their games apart and rebuild them into a proper working order. They are better prepared for decline than geniuses. Throughout, they have been battling to keep failure at bay. They know how to do it, know what is involved. Geniuses don't need to think along these lines. Of course, they must work and fight, but the discovery of vulnerability comes as a shock, to them and their admirers.


Not that Lara and Tendulkar are the same. The Trinidadian is a deeply flawed, though eminently plausible, man, with a strong will and an extraordinary ability to rouse himself when all appears lost. All through, he has played in bursts, and his inconsistency has been a burden as his brilliance has been an inspiration. He has won Test matches, and sometimes even series, off his own bat. Goliaths have been slain. Between times he has failed miserably, and his team has gone down with him.

Now Lara is enduring another slump. It is nothing new. Doubtless, his reflexes have slowed somewhat and certainly, he has put on weight, but he has always batted in patches. He can seem frustratingly flighty. Perhaps, he has one more surge in him, at the 2007 World Cup. He has a sense of history, relishes the roar, and may yet be able to bend a few more matches to his will. Meanwhile, he will bide his time. Instinctively he knows that he has only a few more great innings left in him. He will not waste them. Genius does not serve. It is served.

Tendulkar is another case. Apart from anything else, he is several years younger. Yet it is not merely a matter of age. Tendulkar has been at the forefront of cricket and Indian life since he was a slip of a lad. He has survived the expectations of millions, has scored incomparably more hundreds in international cricket than anyone else, has played so many matches, and always with all eyes upon him. Is it not possible that he is worn out?

Soldiers, firemen, doctors, policemen and so forth can suffer from overexposure. Tendulkar, too, has never had the chance to unwind. Eventually, the soul must cry enough. It is easily forgotten that Bradman himself, the smiling Don, endured terrible illnesses during his career. Easily forgotten, too, that players of previous generations enjoyed winter breaks and hardly batted at all when the blight of war fell upon the world.

To the dismay of some observers, Tendulkar has responded to his travails by playing a more cautious game. What was he supposed to do? He is not a fool or an innocent but a seasoned campaigner, a professional sportsman, who knows full well the value of runs on the board.

Even Lara has made some concessions to age by reducing and straightening his back-lift and by taking a longer look at the bowling. Admittedly, he waited till Sobers proferred this advice but that is the nature of the man. Arguably, Tendulkar also needs to rethink his game. His habit of leaving his back foot on leg stump widens his range but it means that the stumps are not fully covered. Tendulkar was bound to take a more measured approach. Anything less was a denial of the mind, a rejection of the maturity all must embrace. Denied the majesty available in other walks of life, sporting genius must recognise and respond to its slow and inevitable loss. The older dancer does not attempt the pirouettes of uncompromised youth; the batsman cannot attack with the same bravado. The odds have changed. And the brain demands results.

Neither Lara or Tendulkar can ever be quite the same again. Sportsmen fade away. Talent dwindles. Everything is temporary in sport. Nor will they be permitted a Tempest because sport encourages competition not contemplation. But there is no reason to regret anything. Both players have illuminated the game. And both may stir again as experience pulls its weight. Although there can be no going back, Tendulkar, especially, has more runs in him. Revival is impossible but the master of Mumbai knows a thing or two, and might yet overcome the heaviness in his mind.
 

Benny2k1

U19 12th Man
Sachin is a great player but to see people on here say sachin is far superior to lara boggles the mind, I think Lara JUST edges it but they are both champions and i would take any of them in the england squad.
Some FACTS:

Lara More double hundereds, Lara More runs, Lara highest First class Score, Lara most run in an over, Lara only player to score 100,200,300,400,500 Lara played more matchwinning/matchsaving important innings (see wisdens list of greatest innings!)

http://www.hinduonnet.com/2001/07/28/stories/07280281.htm

``I hope Tendulkar's second phase in Test cricket matches Lara's first phase. In the `Wisden 100' ratings winning a match is given weightage. Lara did not leave it to the others to win a match,'' he said. The `Wisden 100' rates Lara's 153 not out against Australia in Bridgetown in 1998-99 as the second best innings after Sir Donald Bradman's 270 against England in Melbourne in 1936-37. Lara's 375 against England in St. John's in 1993-94 and 213 against Australia in Kingston in 1998-99 are rated as the 10th and 14th best Test match innings"

Proves Lara is a match winner.

Sachin Only beats lara in 2 things most centuries (3 ahead of lara and hes got 4 vs zim and bang lara has 2)
And a better average but he has 22 not outs lara has 6 and laras average is STILL only 2 runs behind in the averages, plus lara has had to bat in a weeker team than sachin!
 

dontcloseyoureyes

BARNES OUT
Sachin is Indian, therefore better.

[I believe we have no right to discuss who is/was better. They're both legends and should stay as equals IMO]
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
^ Agreed

We should just take advantage of every opportunity to see them bat, because it could well be the last time...
 

Benny2k1

U19 12th Man
dontcloseyoureyes said:
Sachin is Indian, therefore better.

[I believe we have no right to discuss who is/was better. They're both legends and should stay as equals IMO]

Agreed
 

a10khan

School Boy/Girl Captain
All I'd say here is in all these yrs of watching cricket I have seen more match winnings knocks from Lara, Waugh, Ponting, Dravid and Inzamam then I have from Sachin. Not taking anything away from the little master but that is my personal observation over the years. It is not based on stats, whose better home or away who scored more in 1st or 2nd innnigs etc. This is just based on my own two eyes.

This whole argument that Sachin was in a weak Indian side is quite inaccurate because they always had one of the better batting lineups in the world. I think Sachin has been a stunning player until recently, although he has a great average even now I can vouch that he has played few match-winning/match-saving innings in the last 2-3 yrs. Injuries ofc have also slowed him down.

Lara to me has been horribly inconsistent throughout. He has looked visibly uninterested at quite a few times, someone who didn't always work too hard on his batting like he did in Antigua few days ago.

But in any case both are legends. Cricket will be poorer over the next couple years because I see quite a few stars retiring in that time. Lara, Inzamam, Murali, McGrath, Jayasuriya, Pollock and Warne I think will be all gone. And thus, cricket will never be as much fun.
 

Benny2k1

U19 12th Man
a10khan said:
All I'd say here is in all these yrs of watching cricket I have seen more match winnings knocks from Lara, Waugh, Ponting, Dravid and Inzamam then I have from Sachin. Not taking anything away from the little master but that is my personal observation over the years. It is not based on stats, whose better home or away who scored more in 1st or 2nd innnigs etc. This is just based on my own two eyes.

This whole argument that Sachin was in a weak Indian side is quite inaccurate because they always had one of the better batting lineups in the world. I think Sachin has been a stunning player until recently, although he has a great average even now I can vouch that he has played few match-winning/match-saving innings in the last 2-3 yrs. Injuries ofc have also slowed him down.

Lara to me has been horribly inconsistent throughout. He has looked visibly uninterested at quite a few times, someone who didn't always work too hard on his batting like he did in Antigua few days ago.

But in any case both are legends. Cricket will be poorer over the next couple years because I see quite a few stars retiring in that time. Lara, Inzamam, Murali, McGrath, Jayasuriya, Pollock and Warne I think will be all gone. And thus, cricket will never be as much fun.

Good Post :) sachin has not played as many matchwinning innings as Lara and company, Sachins Claim to greatness i think will be his consistency for a few years in the 1990s
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
First you say they should be equal, and we should leave it at that, and then you open an attack on Sachin calling it a 'few years of consistency in the 90's'. If you want to say they are equal, thats your opinion, and fine by me, but then you can't open a vitriolic attack on Sachin and not expect a response.

Sachin is by and far the better batsman. In fact, I would rate sachin in the all time world XI, but lara wouldn't even be considered (he might make the 2nd all time XI though).

Sachin averaged more in the 90's, when he went up against better attacks. He playes better in Australia than Lara (best team of this era). As someone else also daid, "Lara failed to score a century vs Donald-Pollock or Wasim-Waqar etc. Tendulkar did so againts both."

I would also like to see his average in series that have already been decided...I am trying to look that up.

All I'd say here is in all these yrs of watching cricket I have seen more match winnings knocks from Lara, Waugh, Ponting, Dravid and Inzamam then I have from Sachin. Not taking anything away from the little master but that is my personal observation over the years. It is not based on stats, whose better home or away who scored more in 1st or 2nd innnigs etc. This is just based on my own two eyes.
Its not based on any stats, just based on what games you happened to catch. And thats fine, no one is saying you have to watch every game. But then you can't make an unfair extrapolation from that, saying that just because he didn't do anything in the games that you watched, that he doesn't ever do it.

Sachin also has a better technique and was able to play against the best attacks in the 90's, while Lara was often 'found out' on bowling friendly wickets when the bowlers bowled a line outside off stump.


In the end, Sachin did more against better attacks in more places than Lara has, and thus Sachin > Lara.

And as I mentioned earlier, here are the most inconsistant batsman with over 5000 runs in the history of cricket:

1. Marvan Atapattu
2. Zaheer Abbas
3. Sanath Jayasuriya
4. Brian Lara

It doesn't mean they are bad players, just inconsistent. "Few years in the 90's", my ***. And even if that were true, a 'few years of consistency' is better than no consistency at all, right?


And in the end, you should be judged on how you play against the best in their own back yard:
Sachin vs. Australia in Australia: 54
Lara vs. Australia in Australia: 41

He does better in WI, but overseas is where you really prove your prowess. Bradman wasn't considered great untill he totally dominated on the English wickets.

/Sorry if I sound angry, but very few things have stirred me up as much as calling Sachin's career a 'few years of consistency'. Although that shot Dhoni played in mumbai [twice] came close.
 
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a10khan

School Boy/Girl Captain
^^ BTW I never said his career was only a few yrs. of consistency. Also, I have watched a fair amount of Sachin, enough innings to base my judgement on. But having said that, he has still scored tons of runs in crucial situations. He and other Indian batsmen were also partly hampered by a mediocre Indian bowling lineup. Only Srinath and Kumble were really worth something, and I guess Prasad for a couple of years in the mid 90s.

Hey, its just my opinion. And I am basing that on a whole bunch of matches. You know what, I always felt that Sachin took his job too seriously, he takes too much pressure on himself, and moreso now.

BTW I have debated with many die hard Sachin fans and not one of them have agreed with me on the points that I just mentioned. I dont expect you to agree either! :)
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
a10khan said:
Cricket will be poorer over the next couple years because I see quite a few stars retiring in that time. Lara, Inzamam, Murali, McGrath, Jayasuriya, Pollock and Warne I think will be all gone. And thus, cricket will never be as much fun.
Thats a bit harsh don't you think, cricketers will always emerge & i'm sure when these top players retire others will step up i.e Pietersen, Lee, Asif, Dhoni etc..
 

a10khan

School Boy/Girl Captain
aussie said:
Thats a bit harsh don't you think, cricketers will always emerge & i'm sure when these top players retire others will step up i.e Pietersen, Lee, Asif, Dhoni etc..
The stars in the 70s n 80s were more in number and bigger in stature then most in 90s and through to the millenium. So, I have my doubt if the stars of tomorrow will be as good as what we've already seen. I am skeptical, but I'd be happy if I am proved wrong!
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
dontcloseyoureyes said:
Why won't people let this die.
Why dont you let it die ? You come here and post bull crap that 'Sachin is Indian, therefore better". Hey atleast most of us recognize Lara as a great batsman, as great as Sachin Tendulkar If not better. And that's very unlike majority of fans of some country who cant get over the fact that there is another spinner in the world who can be as good (if not better) as the spinner from their country.
 

Benny2k1

U19 12th Man
I may have been abit off the mark with the few years of consistency comment so i apologise, the thing that gets to me tho is all indian fans say sachin is "clearly" "Far" or as silentstriker said "Sachin is by and far the better batsman" and all you have to do is go through this thread to find quotes like that, with the exception of Bradman, looking at both records, And thinking bout matchwinning innings its clear that Lara, Tendulkar are pretty much even and i would pick both in my world 11 because there is no argument for sachin that could not be countered with lara.

Sachin is more consistent? Lara is more a matchwinner
Sachin has more 100s, Lara has more runs
Sachin Plays warne better, Lara plays murali better
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Sanz said:
And that's very unlike majority of fans of some country who cant get over the fact that there is another spinner in the world who can be as good (if not better) as the spinner from their country.
careful, before you start you know what up again..
 

C_C

International Captain
I think Sachin is better than Lara as an overall batsman.
That doesnt eliminate the fact(nor does it wish to ignore it) that there are aspects where Lara is better than Tendulkar- his powers of concentration and ability to produce mindboggling stuff when pushed to a corner is incredible and better than anyone else's in the world.
I keep saying that once you eliminate Bradman, (ie, #2 alltime batsman onwards), #2 down to #10 (or perhaps even further) are close to each other like in a 100 meter dash and the one who comes out better is not better in every category.
Viv couldnt match Gavaskar's tenacity at the wicket and the ability to eat up overs if required. Gavaskar likewise, couldnt match Viv's destructive capability on his day. This doesnt mean that Viv couldnt play the 'sticky' innings or Gavaskar couldnt play the demolisher job- just that day in and day out aspect-wise, one scores higher in that category and vice versa.

Tendulkar for me is a greater batsman than Lara. Simply because when i evaluate batsmanship, i dont just look at tests or ODIs individually but both. I agree that tests are a tougher challenge but that doesnt negate ODI batsmanship alltogether and it doesnt negate the fact that there are aspects to ODI batting that are more demanding than tests(such as the ability to score at a good consistent clip).
In ODIs, Tendulkar can only be matched or superseeded by two batsmen in ODI history-Viv and Bevan. There is a clear gap between these three and the rest as far as i am concerned in ODIs.
Not even most of the ardent Lara fans would argue that Tendulkar shades him comprehensively and categorically in ODIs(though Lara himself is a great ODI batsman and a pick for my alltime ODI side).

Now for tests- I think Lara plays spin bowling marginally better than Tendy but Tendy plays quality pace bowling better than Lara- more of a gap than in the former case.
Before the pitches flattened out with the new millenium, batting in tests was a far bigger challenge (ie, perhaps mid 60s to end of 90s period) and that is where Tendulkar shone while Lara faltered more.
Tendulkar shades him in performance vs quality bowling attacks in tougher conditions.

Not to mention, as a guy who played cricket almost exclusively as a seamer, i would fancy bowling to Lara more than Tendulkar. Tendulkar is one of the few batsmen along with Dravid, Viv,Chappell,Bradman,Sobers and Gavaskar(that i know of) who rarely gives a chance till he gets out and is a very solid starter. Lara-regardless of form-is mostly a shaky starter and from a bowler's perspective, i always get the feeling of ' first 30 balls he faces, you got a clear chance to out him'.
 

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