Generation of top class Aussie openers Taylor, Hayden, Slater, Langer, Elliot.

[Richard]

Myth.

Hayden's strike-rate indicates he bats in tests similar to others, just recently he's been very paritent. There's plenty of guys faster than him. I think the imagery of him walking down pitches and flicking balls off his hip for six in ODI's sort of influences their opinion on how he bats. Hayden can be very patient... or at least he has been in the last few months.

That's not the point - opening is supposed to be about seeing-off the new-ball, not doing what Hayden pretty much always did between 2001\02 and 2004.

 

[aussie]

Not true.
Between Trent Bridge 1997 and The WACA 1998\99 he averaged over 60.
Then, like near enough everyone, he had the end-of-career comedown.

well i got just under 60http://statserver.cricket.org/guru?sdb=player;playerid=1922;class=testplayer;filter=advanced;team=0;opposition=0;notopposition=0;homeaway=0;continent=0;country=0;notcountry=0;groundid=0;season=0;startdefault=1989-01-26;start=1997-08-01;enddefault=1999-01-05;end=1998-11-30;tourneyid=0;finals=0;daynight=0;toss=0;scheduleddays=0;scheduledovers=0;innings=0;followon=0;result=0;seriesresult=0;captain=0;keeper=0;dnp=0;recent=;viewtype=aro_list;runslow=;runshigh=;batposition=0;dismissal=0;bowposition=0;ballslow=;ballshigh=;bpof=0;overslow=;overshigh=;conclow=;conchigh=;wicketslow=;wicketshigh=;dismissalslow=;dismissalshigh=;caughtlow=;caughthigh=;caughttype=0;stumpedlow=;stumpedhigh=;csearch=;submit=1;.cgifields=viewtype[/URL] but doesn't matter. He faced England twice who obviously didn't have any great attack in the those 2 ashes series. Plus overall if you take out his monumental 334 in peshawar vs PAK & 169 he was patchy, which as i said before he wasn't as consistent as before 95.

From Bridgetown 95 to Leeds 97 where he faced his nemisis Ambrose & the WI twice, Pakistan & South Africa. Pretty much a better all-round attacks than between TB 97 to the The WACA 98 and he averaged just 29http://statserver.cricket.org/guru?sdb=player;playerid=1922;class=testplayer;filter=advanced;team=0;opposition=0;notopposition=0;homeaway=0;continent=0;country=0;notcountry=0;groundid=0;season=0;startdefault=1989-01-26;start=1995-03-31;enddefault=1999-01-05;end=1997-07-28;tourneyid=0;finals=0;daynight=0;toss=0;scheduleddays=0;scheduledovers=0;innings=0;followon=0;result=0;seriesresult=0;captain=0;keeper=0;dnp=0;recent=;viewtype=aro_list;runslow=;runshigh=;batposition=0;dismissal=0;bowposition=0;ballslow=;ballshigh=;bpof=0;overslow=;overshigh=;conclow=;conchigh=;wicketslow=;wicketshigh=;dismissalslow=;dismissalshigh=;caughtlow=;caughthigh=;caughttype=0;stumpedlow=;stumpedhigh=;csearch=;submit=1;.cgifields=viewtype[/URL]

 

[aussie]

urr these bloody urls

 

[Francis]

[/quote]That's not the point - opening is supposed to be about seeing-off the new-ball, not doing what Hayden pretty much always did between 2001\02 and 2004.[/quote]

Like I said. Myth. We've all seen him walk down the pitch to fast bowlers etc. But in tests he was very cautious.

Even if he wasn't... he's still effective, which is really the point. Herbert Sutcliffe was an example of an opener who wasn't prototypical, but really effective without being graceful. The English Hayden really.

 

[sideshowtim]

hayden. anyone who uses the superior bowling attack argument is quite silly as hayden can only face who he is pitted up against. haydens record is superior to any of those players and his sheer force is a sight to see. we're lucky we've had such great openers for a long time and with jaques and hussey still there it looks like it may continue after haydos and alfies days are over.

 

[honestbharani]

I don't think you have anything against Hayden HonestB, you're entitled to your opinion.

I am suprised that you argued that Hayden isn't great because he scores slow. If that makes you great then when Gilchrist was averaging over 50 and striking over 80 runs for every hundred he was the best. I mean to many great batsmen scored slowly... I don't now if Hyaden is any slower than Len Hutton or Sunil Gavaskar. When you have five days, which is becomming more than enough time these days, you don't have to score fast, you just need to be effective.

While I would say he was the best batsman in the world for a period in this century, I'd in no way compare his peak to that of Lara, Tendulkar or Ponting's current peak.

I wouldn't be caught dead putting Hayden in the same league as Lara or Tendulkar or now Ponting... but he was the best batsman in the world for a while around 2001-2002. And yes Richard he went for over a year not getting a ton, but before that he looked amazing.



Myth.

Hayden's strike-rate indicates he bats in tests similar to others, just recently he's been very paritent. There's plenty of guys faster than him. I think the imagery of him walking down pitches and flicking balls off his hip for six in ODI's sort of influences their opinion on how he bats. Hayden can be very patient... or at least he has been in the last few months.

My argument was based on not the strike rates alone. I have seen him dominate lesser attacks in better conditions and yet, he hasn't been able to do that here. I am not saying that scoring quickly is a pre-requisite for greatness, but the likes of Lara, Ponting, SAchin etc. most definitely have more strokes and ability than him. And since I classify them as "my greats", I feel that Hayden should be a level below that. Sorry if it came across the wrong way. Plus, inspite of some of the great blockers around the world, I still think a "Truly great" player will have the ability to dominate good attacks in tough conditions. Even an out of form Sachin managed it at Mumbai, didn't he? Even Gavaskar has played some good attacking innings in tests, or so I have been told.

 

[Richard]

Like I said. Myth. We've all seen him walk down the pitch to fast bowlers etc. But in tests he was very cautious.

Even if he wasn't... he's still effective, which is really the point. Herbert Sutcliffe was an example of an opener who wasn't prototypical, but really effective without being graceful. The English Hayden really.

Not really, Sutcliffe played on some pitches in the 1920s (and scored runs) that would, quite rightly, see games abandoned on-the-spot today.
It's not myth that opening is supposed to be about seeing-off the new-ball. The fact that Hayden has been able to walk down the pitch says clearly that something is very, very wrong in Tests at the current time (well - I say that, we haven't seen it for a while).

 

[Richard]

hayden. anyone who uses the superior bowling attack argument is quite silly as hayden can only face who he is pitted up against.

Err, when did anyone say otherwise?
The point is, if what you're up against is ****-poor, it DOES count against you when you're compared with others who faced much more challenging circumstances.