The Latest Comparison - Ponting or Chappell?

[C_C]

Tendulkar and Lara are great talents but Dravid ....

Ponting's average drops by 20% whilst Dravid who, if were being extremely generous, is on a par as a player of quicks, hardly changes.

That makes no sense.

Because for one, Dravid averages just the same as Ponting despite having faced McGrath and Gillespie.
For two, Dravid averaged better than Ponting before 2000/2001, when the pitches were harder to bat on and bowling standard was still excellent.
But i would expect Dravid to average in the low 50s as well.
IMO he handles the swinging ball better than Ponting and plays spin far far better.

 

[social]

Because for one, Dravid averages just the same as Ponting despite having faced McGrath and Gillespie.
For two, Dravid averaged better than Ponting before 2000/2001, when the pitches were harder to bat on and bowling standard was still excellent.
But i would expect Dravid to average in the low 50s as well.
IMO he handles the swinging ball better than Ponting and plays spin far far better.

And you conveniently ignore the fact that his average vs Aus when McGrath is in the team is substantially below that of his career PLUS, from 70 til Warne, hardly any decent spinners played (outside India and Pak) and that skill is therefore largely irrelevant to the period in question.

 

[Jono]

Yet ironically its Warne that's given him trouble in his career previously.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Regardless, Dravid's average against Australia with Warne and McGrath in the side is around 30, so it's absurd to say that Dravid is better than Ponting because he's performed against Australia's great bowlers. He hasn't been a miserable failure against them, and he's obviously dominated Australia when they were absent, but he hasn't set the world alight either. Kallis actually has a better average against those bowlers than Dravid does, with all the criticism Kallis gets.

Dravid is a better player of spin than Ponting, even today, but there's no doubt who the better player against fast bowling is. Given that we're talking about an era if cricket with virtually no spinners and many great quicks and seam-friendly surfaces, it's a strange conclusion to make that Ponting's average would drop by 10-15 runs while Dravid's would not.

 

[C_C]

Regardless, Dravid's average against Australia with Warne and McGrath in the side is around 30, so it's absurd to say that Dravid is better than Ponting because he's performed against Australia's great bowlers. He hasn't been a miserable failure against them, and he's obviously dominated Australia when they were absent, but he hasn't set the world alight either. Kallis actually has a better average against those bowlers than Dravid does, with all the criticism Kallis gets.

Dravid is a better player of spin than Ponting, even today, but there's no doubt who the better player against fast bowling is. Given that we're talking about an era if cricket with virtually no spinners and many great quicks and seam-friendly surfaces, it's a strange conclusion to make that Ponting's average would drop by 10-15 runs while Dravid's would not.

Regardless, Dravid averages just as much as Ponting does despite playing McGrath, Gillespie and Warne.
By the end of 2001, when bowling standards began to decline alarmingly and pitches became flatter and flatter, Dravid was averaging 50+ while Ponting was below 45. And i definately dont think Ponting is a better player of pace than Dravid - he handles bounce better but Dravid has less problems against really fast bowlers or when there is lateral movement- which was common in almost all non-subcontinental pitches in the 70-2000 period.

Besides, all this talk about 'lack of spinners' is only valid for the late 80s-early 90s period.
In the 70s there was the Indian spin quartet, Gibbs played till mid 70s and Underwood was around. In the early-mid 80s, Doshi, Qadir, Qasim, etc. were around as well.

 

[aussie]

90s ? the 90s was arguably the best decade for bowlers barring perhaps the 75-85 period.
Ponting and Kallis both were averaging below 45 well into their 25th birthday and 4-5 years after their debut. Thats the kind of stage(age and experience) where batsmen of the highest callibre (such Viv, Tendulkar, Lara, G.Chappell, Gavaskar, etc.) have already established themselves as the next big kahuna ( ie- averaging over 50 or very close to it). Steve Waugh was one notable exception but then again, Waugh earnt his stripes against some of the best attacks in cricketing history. Ponting,Kallis, etc. ( basically batsmen who've made hay in the last 5 years, particularly aussie batsmen of that period) have faced some of the worst bowling standards on some of the flattest pitches on this planet. As such, they neither have the prodigal talent nor the early establishment of their names/earnt their stripes against extremely high quality stuff to be considered in the same bracket as the greatest of batsmen- not yet anyways.
Given the difference in pitches and bowling stocks we see currently, players like Ponting, Kallis, Dravid, etc. would have to average 60 or very close to it (at the end of their careers) to be considered on par with the Laras and Tendulkars of the world.

fair enough i'd say..

 

[aussie]

Err, South Africa, India and West Indies mightn't have been as strong as Eng and Aus but they certainly weren't poor, at least nowhere near as poor as some of the nonsense we see today.

No way man, name the good/great bowlers West Indies South Africa, India & NZ had in the 30's, from research pretty much none. Eng & Aus had all though i.e Larwood, Voce, Grimmett, O'Reilly, Tate, Verity to name a few..

 

[aussie]

Ponting is widely regarded as one of the best players of pace. In an era where the ball hardly swings and on pitches which are flat. Back in the days where pace ruled on pitches suited for pace, Punter struggled to average 45. Ponting's play of pace, to me, is good on pitches that dont do squat.

Definately being way too harsh on Ponting here. We all know since 2000 what has been the case with the pitches & bowling standards worldwide. But Ponting has made runs againts a top pace attack in conditions that suite pace bowling. For example:

vs West Indies, Brisbane 96:http://www.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1996-97/WI_IN_AUS/WI_AUS_T1_22-26NOV1996.html

vs South Africa, MCG 97:http://www.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1997-98/RSA_IN_AUS/RSA_AUS_T1_26-30DEC1997.html

vs Pakistan, Peth, 99:http://wi.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1999-2000/PAK_IN_AUS/SCORECARDS/PAK_AUS_T3_26-30NOV1999.html

Now recently, since he has matured into a top class player hundred in the ashes at OT, MCG vs SA, 1st Innings century vs SA at SCG and vs SA in Capetwon & Durban.

For me at his best he can rival Lara & Tendulkar for ability to play to fast bowling in tough conditions.[/QUOTE]

 

[aussie]

Regardless, Dravid averages just as much as Ponting does despite playing McGrath, Gillespie and Warne.
By the end of 2001, when bowling standards began to decline alarmingly and pitches became flatter and flatter, Dravid was averaging 50+ while Ponting was below 45. And i definately dont think Ponting is a better player of pace than Dravid - he handles bounce better but Dravid has less problems against really fast bowlers or when there is lateral movement- which was common in almost all non-subcontinental pitches in the 70-2000 period.

You sure about the averages before 2001?. Plus what makes you think Dravid handles bounce better than Ponting & really fast bowlers better than Ponting i really dont see how. I have seen Akhtar cause Dravid more problems that he has Ponting, Bond even though has troubled Ponting but i remeber the 2002/03 series vs NZ when Bond caused all the Indian problems. Also down in Australian in 99 Dravid looked pretty poor againts the short ball.

Ponting on the other hand plays fast bowling with few flaws currently

 

[social]

Regardless, Dravid averages just as much as Ponting does despite playing McGrath, Gillespie and Warne.
By the end of 2001, when bowling standards began to decline alarmingly and pitches became flatter and flatter, Dravid was averaging 50+ while Ponting was below 45. And i definately dont think Ponting is a better player of pace than Dravid - he handles bounce better but Dravid has less problems against really fast bowlers or when there is lateral movement- which was common in almost all non-subcontinental pitches in the 70-2000 period.
QUOTE]

Talk about unsubstantiated statements.

Given Dravid's trevails against McGrath and co on Indian pitches post 2000, does this mean he has a weakness against fast-medium bowlers on dead wickets, i.e. no bounce or movement, in searing hot conditions?

Dravid, Ponting and Kallis are all great players. There is absolutely nothing in their games to suggest that they would be markedly less successful in any other era than they are today FULL STOP

 

[marc71178]

Regardless, Dravid averages just as much as Ponting does despite playing McGrath, Gillespie and Warne.

By cashing in when McGrath was injured.

 

[tooextracool]

Talk about unsubstantiated statements.

Given Dravid's trevails against McGrath and co on Indian pitches post 2000, does this mean he has a weakness against fast-medium bowlers on dead wickets, i.e. no bounce or movement, in searing hot conditions?

quite quite, so these 'trevails' happened in a whole 1 series in India then? and you'd have to be an absolute clown if you thought the pitches in mumbai and nagpur in 2004 had no bounce or movement.

Dravid, Ponting and Kallis are all great players. There is absolutely nothing in their games to suggest that they would be markedly less successful in any other era than they are today FULL STOP

amusing isnt it? first you criticise dravid's performances against mcgrath and co in India where he averaged an oh so useless 42 against australia. yet if we decided to go to the specifics why not talk about pontings record against harbhajan singh/kumble in india? all of a sudden that 42 doesnt look so bad does it?

 

[tooextracool]

Regardless, Dravid's average against Australia with Warne and McGrath in the side is around 30, so it's absurd to say that Dravid is better than Ponting because he's performed against Australia's great bowlers. He hasn't been a miserable failure against them, and he's obviously dominated Australia when they were absent, but he hasn't set the world alight either. Kallis actually has a better average against those bowlers than Dravid does, with all the criticism Kallis gets.

and if dravid has failed against the very best in the world, than ponting has not just failed, but hes bombed it completely when hes played against the best attack of his day. infact even while playing against the english quartet last summer he merely had an ordinary series, and save for the innings at Old Trafford he was by and large a miserable failure all tour.

 

[tooextracool]

By cashing in when McGrath was injured.

and mcgrath has caused him so many problems in series pre 2004 hasnt he?

 

[tooextracool]

Sri Lanka have Murali and Vaas, and also Bandara who is a good young spinner. Malinga has also had a good start to his test career. All those guys except Bandara average under 30.

mailinga is for all means and purposes, rubbish

 

[tooextracool]

I have seen Akhtar cause Dravid more problems that he has Ponting, Bond even though has troubled Ponting but i remeber the 2002/03 series vs NZ when Bond caused all the Indian problems. Also down in Australian in 99 Dravid looked pretty poor againts the short ball.

given the pitches in NZ, id say an average of 32 which dravid had at the end of the series was extremely impressive, he was by far the best player in the side on the tour.
As far as Dravid down under is concerned, its the first ive heard that he looked poor against the short ball. Common reasoning during the time was that he just had no experience playing on wickets that bounced as much as the Australian wickets did back then. Dravid didnt just fail against Mcgrath and Warne, he failed all tour and that included the warm ups because he just had failed to adjust to the conditions.

 

[C_C]

Definately being way too harsh on Ponting here. We all know since 2000 what has been the case with the pitches & bowling standards worldwide. But Ponting has made runs againts a top pace attack in conditions that suite pace bowling. For example:

vs West Indies, Brisbane 96:http://www.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1996-97/WI_IN_AUS/WI_AUS_T1_22-26NOV1996.html

vs South Africa, MCG 97:http://www.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1997-98/RSA_IN_AUS/RSA_AUS_T1_26-30DEC1997.html

vs Pakistan, Peth, 99:http://wi.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1999-2000/PAK_IN_AUS/SCORECARDS/PAK_AUS_T3_26-30NOV1999.html

Now recently, since he has matured into a top class player hundred in the ashes at OT, MCG vs SA, 1st Innings century vs SA at SCG and vs SA in Capetwon & Durban.

For me at his best he can rival Lara & Tendulkar for ability to play to fast bowling in tough conditions.

[/QUOTE]

Err. Few innings here and there doesnt prove diddly squat. The fact remains- when pitches were juicy and bowling standards high, Ponting couldnt average 45 when Dravid averaged jjust over 50.

 

[C_C]

Regardless, Dravid averages just as much as Ponting does despite playing McGrath, Gillespie and Warne.
By the end of 2001, when bowling standards began to decline alarmingly and pitches became flatter and flatter, Dravid was averaging 50+ while Ponting was below 45. And i definately dont think Ponting is a better player of pace than Dravid - he handles bounce better but Dravid has less problems against really fast bowlers or when there is lateral movement- which was common in almost all non-subcontinental pitches in the 70-2000 period.
QUOTE]

Talk about unsubstantiated statements.

Given Dravid's trevails against McGrath and co on Indian pitches post 2000, does this mean he has a weakness against fast-medium bowlers on dead wickets, i.e. no bounce or movement, in searing hot conditions?

Dravid, Ponting and Kallis are all great players. There is absolutely nothing in their games to suggest that they would be markedly less successful in any other era than they are today FULL STOP

Look- its very simple. Dravid-Ponting-Kallis are all around the same age and all made their debuts around 95/96. Yet before 20001 or so, Dravid averaged a shade over 50, Ponting a shade under 45 and Kallis around 42 or so. That says it all really. Dravid also handled Ambrose and Walsh significantly better than Ponting did. I dont rate Ponting as an awesome player of fast bowling at all. He is very good against fast bowling but not as good as Lara or Tendulkar or Viv are/were against fast bowling. Against spin on spinning wickets, he is quite medeocre to say the least. Also, Ponting doesnt average anything as good as Dravid away from home- the 'away from home' factor is a good guage of adaptability.

 

[aussie]

given the pitches in NZ, id say an average of 32 which dravid had at the end of the series was extremely impressive, he was by far the best player in the side on the tour.

From all reports i remember at the time i thought Sehwag was the best player on the tour but then again i'm not certain.

As far as Dravid down under is concerned, its the first ive heard that he looked poor against the short ball. Common reasoning during the time was that he just had no experience playing on wickets that bounced as much as the Australian wickets did back then. Dravid didnt just fail against Mcgrath and Warne, he failed all tour and that included the warm ups because he just had failed to adjust to the conditions.

Well yes, but it just helps my argument. Ponting has never anywhere had problems againts fast bowling in conditions that assist them or not.

 

[C_C]

Well yes, but it just helps my argument. Ponting has never anywhere had problems againts fast bowling in conditions that assist them or not.

But failure against the Aussies is quite irrelevant- Ponting hasnt played the aussies.....