***Official*** India in West Indies

[Arjun]

Let's look at a former (till recently) India regular who's playing in England. He's played four FC matches and taken 28 wickets. He's played 6 OD's and taken 10 wickets. All at a healthy average under 22.

This was the same bowler who burst on the scene with power, pace and a yorker that surprised Steve Waugh. He's been India's best seamer in the early 2000's, possessing all that a seam bowler needed. After the World Cup in South Africa, he somehow faded aay and the leadership did nothing to keep him with the team. This was one seamer who had what it takes to lead the Indian pace attack. Is it time for a complete national recall for Zaheer Khan?

 

[silentstriker]

Let's look at a former (till recently) India regular who's playing in England. He's played four FC matches and taken 28 wickets. He's played 6 OD's and taken 10 wickets. All at a healthy average under 22.

This was the same bowler who burst on the scene with power, pace and a yorker that surprised Steve Waugh. He's been India's best seamer in the early 2000's, possessing all that a seam bowler needed. After the World Cup in South Africa, he somehow faded aay and the leadership did nothing to keep him with the team. This was one seamer who had what it takes to lead the Indian pace attack. Is it time for a complete national recall for Zaheer Khan?

121@36.34 in 42 matches.

 

[adharcric]

http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/wivind/content/current/story/248892.html

As you can see, even Antigua and Barbados can make India look pedestrian overseas. So obviously, WI are also able to do that. That's a very toothless bowling attack we have there.

Don't read too much into these warm-up matches. BP XI beat England in the warm-up and then England beat India.

 

[viktor]

Let's look at a former (till recently) India regular who's playing in England. He's played four FC matches and taken 28 wickets. He's played 6 OD's and taken 10 wickets. All at a healthy average under 22.

This was the same bowler who burst on the scene with power, pace and a yorker that surprised Steve Waugh. He's been India's best seamer in the early 2000's, possessing all that a seam bowler needed. After the World Cup in South Africa, he somehow faded aay and the leadership did nothing to keep him with the team. This was one seamer who had what it takes to lead the Indian pace attack. Is it time for a complete national recall for Zaheer Khan?

Lets look at an underpowered unfit trundler who has been in and out of the Indian Test side. In a recent ODI series against a decent opposition he has taken 9 wickets in 5 matches at just over 18 and a strike rate of 31. And an economy rate of 3.4~
This was the same bowler who burst on the scene with 50 wickets in 23 ODI matches. He kept his best in Tests for Australia and surprised both Steve and Mark Waugh in the 1997 series with his pace and aggression. He was also instrumental in India winning a Test in Australia and with a bit of luck might have won it for India. He can not only lead the Indian pace attack but also is a cult figure who is known in cricketweb (the place where the most knowledgeable on cricket reside) circles as the Big-Eared One or the Almighty (usually suffixed with a "!!!!" and a gasp of awe).

Is it time for the return of the Mighty Mouse to the Indian Test side!!!!!!!

 

[silentstriker]

Lets look at an underpowered unfit trundler who has been in and out of the Indian Test side. In a recent ODI series against a decent opposition he has taken 9 wickets in 5 matches at just over 18 and a strike rate of 31. And an economy rate of 3.4~
This was the same bowler who burst on the scene with 50 wickets in 23 ODI matches. He kept his best in Tests for Australia and surprised both Steve and Mark Waugh in the 1997 series with his pace and aggression. He was also instrumental in India winning a Test in Australia and with a bit of luck might have won it for India. He can not only lead the Indian pace attack but also is a cult figure who is known in cricketweb (the place where the most knowledgeable on cricket reside) circles as the Big-Eared One or the Almighty (usually suffixed with a "!!!!" and a gasp of awe).

Is it time for the return of the Mighty Mouse to the Indian Test side!!!!!!!

The Almighty one was also by far the best Indian pace bowler on display in the WI ODI series.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Seriously, you'd have to be delusional to think that this result was purely due to the good play of the West Indies. They played well no doubt, but India was downright poor. I'm not sure if it was more Windies being good or India being bad, but they were both significant.

I never said it was. If you look at my earlier posts (one of which you responded to), you'd see I mentioned that India is a very flawed side. That said, the West Indies have struggled to beat anyone at all in recent years, so beat India it took a lot more than India playing poorly.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

How much of that is due to India sucking, rather than WI playing superb? No way to know, except through history of India overseas. WI played well above their average. But I am not ready to admit they are an above average team.

Of course the team isn't above average, but that's only because of a lack of consistency. The West Indies team at its best is certainly world class and above average though, and to suggest otherwise... well I don't know what to say.

If you think WI at their beat can match or beat Australia at their best...well I don't know what to say.

Most teams can beat or match present-day Australia at their best. That much is obvious, considering that the best of Australia is a diluted version of what it was a few years ago. The West Indies have competed with Australia when playing well before. If you think that the only way the West Indies can beat Australia is when Australia plays poorly, you have no concept of the sport.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

No, all the credit to the WI for taking advantage of their opportunity. Thats what decent teams are supposed to do.

But the biggest reason for the series loss was India sucking rather than WI playing well. That's all.

Is that you, Captain Contradiction?

It's more pleasant to think that the Indians would only be beaten by the lowly West Indies when they allow themselves to be beaten, isn't it?

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/wivind/content/current/story/248892.html

As you can see, even Antigua and Barbados can make India look pedestrian overseas. So obviously, WI are also able to do that. That's a very toothless bowling attack we have there.

Antigua and Barbuda only got close to 300 at all because of Sylvester Joseph's unbeaten ton. Joseph has played Test and international cricket for the West Indies. Joseph scored big runs against England 'A'.

Sylvester Joseph can play.

Again, you're just not willing to give any credit, ey?

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Another thing to note is the way that India have basically been embarrassed by the West Indian spinners. When two thirds of the spin attack are Marlon Samuels and Chris Gayle, that's not pleasant. Both good bowlers, but neither is a truly world class spin bowler.

None of them picked Dave Mohammed on Sunday and he was successful as a result.

While the West Indian batsmen were dancing down the pitch and getting to the pitch of the ball, the Indians looked largely clueless and to how to impose themself on the spinners. Really, that's a shame for players were bred on spin.

 

[adharcric]

Another thing to note is the way that India have basically been embarrassed by the West Indian spinners. When two thirds of the spin attack are Marlon Samuels and Chris Gayle, that's not pleasant. Both good bowlers, but neither is a truly world class spin bowler.

None of them picked Dave Mohammed on Sunday and he was successful as a result.

While the West Indian batsmen were dancing down the pitch and getting to the pitch of the ball, the Indians looked largely clueless and to how to impose themself on the spinners. Really, that's a shame for players were bred on spin.

That is one reason I suggested that India did a LOT to lose this series; the fact that they were tied down by guys like Gayle and Samuels when they have handled far better spinners in the past shows it. West Indies played well, India played poorly. I think I agree with you for the most part. (your last post)

 

[silentstriker]

Another thing to note is the way that India have basically been embarrassed by the West Indian spinners. When two thirds of the spin attack are Marlon Samuels and Chris Gayle, that's not pleasant. Both good bowlers, but neither is a truly world class spin bowler.

None of them picked Dave Mohammed on Sunday and he was successful as a result.

While the West Indian batsmen were dancing down the pitch and getting to the pitch of the ball, the Indians looked largely clueless and to how to impose themself on the spinners. Really, that's a shame for players were bred on spin.

So basically you just proved my point. If none of them were world class and yet Indian batsman (famed players of spin) were comprehensively beaten by them.......it seems more the doing of the batsman than the non-world class spinners, right? Unless of course, all the WI spinners took some magic pills to become Warne and Murali overnight.

It's more pleasant to think that the Indians would only be beaten by the lowly West Indies when they allow themselves to be beaten, isn't it?

Well overseas, India are a much worse team. So its not that they allow themselves to be beaten. Its that they are so bad, its not a suprise that they got beaten by an average team. Even I was coming around to thinking that their non-subcontinent collapses are starting to be behind them...but I was fooling myself.

 

[silentstriker]

Most teams can beat or match present-day Australia at their best. That much is obvious, considering that the best of Australia is a diluted version of what it was a few years ago. The West Indies have competed with Australia when playing well before. If you think that the only way the West Indies can beat Australia is when Australia plays poorly, you have no concept of the sport.

Well if you think if that Aus would lose in Australia at their best vs. most teams at their best....I am not sure what to say.

 

[silentstriker]

Antigua and Barbuda only got close to 300 at all because of Sylvester Joseph's unbeaten ton. Joseph has played Test and international cricket for the West Indies. Joseph scored big runs against England 'A'.

Sylvester Joseph can play.

Again, you're just not willing to give any credit, ey?

No, I am perfectly willing to concede that Indian frontline bowlers are almost good enough to make into England 'A' side. Maybe they'd make the 2nd XI (with the exception of spinners).

 

[vic_orthdox]

The most interesting thing that I found when playing India's youth side was that we'd bowl a few part time spinners at their top order batsmen, and they didn't have as much confidence against people bowling "darts", much like Samuels and Gayle do in ODIs. When a proper spinner came on, they'd come down the track and be confident enough to take you down town, but if someone bowled fast, accurate and they didn't really spin, they didn't seem to be able to get on top of them.

 

[marc71178]

Hence England missed Ashley Giles!

 

[shankar]

The most interesting thing that I found when playing India's youth side was that we'd bowl a few part time spinners at their top order batsmen, and they didn't have as much confidence against people bowling "darts", much like Samuels and Gayle do in ODIs. When a proper spinner came on, they'd come down the track and be confident enough to take you down town, but if someone bowled fast, accurate and they didn't really spin, they didn't seem to be able to get on top of them.

Spot on. I remember one of the commentators mentioning that one of the Indian batsmen (I don't remember who) had told him exactly this - that they were not confident coming down the track to Samuels and Gayle's type of bowling as they were to conventional spinners.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

So basically you just proved my point. If none of them were world class and yet Indian batsman (famed players of spin) were comprehensively beaten by them.......it seems more the doing of the batsman than the non-world class spinners, right? Unless of course, all the WI spinners took some magic pills to become Warne and Murali overnight.

Spinners did not win that series for the West Indies nor did it lose it for India.

Well overseas, India are a much worse team. So its not that they allow themselves to be beaten. Its that they are so bad, its not a suprise that they got beaten by an average team. Even I was coming around to thinking that their non-subcontinent collapses are starting to be behind them...but I was fooling myself.

There you go again - calling the West Indies average.
The performance of the West Indies in that series was well above average, therefore the West Indies that India came up against was certainly not average.

It's not merely that the West Indies lost or India won. Rather, it's significant to watch the way the matches were decided. The crucial matches IMO were the 2nd and 3rd ODIs, and the West Indies played brilliantly to win those.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Well if you think if that Aus would lose in Australia at their best vs. most teams at their best....I am not sure what to say.

I re-iterate, Australia at their present best is not the same as Australia at their prior best. A lot of people put down the increasing number of misses by this Australian team as them playing poorer cricket than usual. It's not that. The reality is that this Australian team is not as good as Steve Waugh's.

Dwayne Bravo, Denesh Ramdin and Corey Collymore showed no fault in the way they played the Australians in periods of the last tour there. The Australians were playing well then, but the West Indies showed in spurts that there is potential to compete with them, even then.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

No, I am perfectly willing to concede that Indian frontline bowlers are almost good enough to make into England 'A' side. Maybe they'd make the 2nd XI (with the exception of spinners).

I'm almost certain that you weren't slamming Munaf Patel when he was ripping through the frontline England batsmen a short while ago.

You probably also weren't such a fierce advocate of the great Pathan and the great hope of Sreesanth back then either.

Suddenly India's bowling attack has gone from promising with Pathan, Sreesanth and Patel on the rise to rubbish. Lovely.