Chinaman

[royGilchrist]

On another note, tracking spin bowler's speeds is always quite intriguing, they do that usually in Austrailia, a good way of analyzing the mind set of a spin bowler. Saqi's speed had increased appreciably since the beating he received in Aus (Hobart).

 

[Kimbo]

Finally some good backup!
One last point. If a batsman at test level isn't comfortable playing off spin and legspin then they must be pretty crap anyway.

 

[full_length]

Originally posted by Top_Cat
Sachin is HARDLY a quality spinner as he wouldn't get into Test side on the basis of it alone. So to say that somehow because he bowls it sometimes and picks up the occasional wicket or bag that he's 'successful' at bowling both types of spin is giving him far too much credit as a bowler.

If he's able to do it but inconsistantly, surely it's not really difficult to say that it is not out of reach of someone who's a professional bowler? Ask Sachin and he wont mention that he's an allrounder. He calls himself a batsman. So a professional bowler can't do well what he does?

The reasons that you never see people who can do both at a high level have a little to do with stuffy conventions but are mainly to do with what Sunil said; there are subtleties in both off and leg-spinning which have little to do with what direction or how much you spin the ball and they take years to master. Sure someone might bamboozle lower-grade batsmen with being able to do both but once they get higher, it gets a little tougher and variation has to be put on hold a little in deference to consistency. It's consistency more than variation which gets goo batsmen out. You can bowl a few unplayable fizzing leg-breaks and beat a good batsman but if the next ball is a long-hop because you had to drastically change your action to bowl the perfect off-break, BOOM! there goes any pressure you might have built up.

Sure it's difficult. Just like it's difficult for one player to bowl pace and spin. But I think that of say, of so many international calibre spinners, surely one or two can do this effectively- if only they tried to develop it. My saying this is not simply because I tried it and found some ways to do it without getting confused withthe line flight and length. I know that we are discussing international cricket and margin for error is very less.
But this is no real reason for saying that it cannot be done by someone who's capable and willing to try. Humans are gifted with a remarkable ability to adjust and adapt quickly.

With only a few rare examples, I've never seen someone who can do both and beat very good batsmen. By trying to be both, you may end up being a 'good' bowler in both types of spin but may never be an 'exceptional' bowler in either. Trying to be good at everything means you'll generally not be 'great' at anything.

Believe me, if I were an international captain and was told that I could have someone who bowled off and leg-spinning at Test standard, I'd have him in the team straight away but I've never seen someone physically able to do both and do them well.

I think that your main argument is simply that you've not seen any great bowler doing this successfully. If Murali manages to increase his repertoire even further, then yours and Sunil's arguments will fall apart. For my side of the debate, it's sufficient for me to say that it is eminently possible that some good leggie also bowls a few offbreaks and controls both the way he wants to. There's no real reason why he cannot do it bowling offspin to batsmen who dont like that kind of delivery. A right arm leggie would want to try to do that against Saurav Ganguly for instance..

We've seen Sobers a paceman,a spinner, and a batsman and we've seen Sachin a bowler who has bowled out Australia on a couple of occasions bowling precisely this mix successfully. These guys have already shown that it is not out of the realm of possibilities. Imagine what a professional bowler with Sachin's mindset can do. If Sachin as a batsman (not even an allrounder) do this and take a five-for against Australia (wickets were Beven, S.Waugh, Lehmann, Tom Moody, Martyn- not bad players of spin huh?) think what a professional spinner can achieve.

That nobody else tries it does have a lot to do with entrenched attitudes.

Any spinner here: don't take this personally!! Not everyone can do it even if they want to.

[Edited on 6/10/2002 by full_length]

 

[Kimbo]

I don't think that the reason for these guys you talk about as being successful is that they can bowl different styles. If there is a change in style evry over then wouldnt it be the same as what you are talking about.
And then why are you just talking about spin. Why shouldn't spinners be trying to develop their pace bowling because the batsmen don't like that?
It seems a stupid argument here...

 

[full_length]

Originally posted by Sunil Havascar
I don't think that the reason for these guys you talk about as being successful is that they can bowl different styles. If there is a change in style evry over then wouldnt it be the same as what you are talking about.
And then why are you just talking about spin. Why shouldn't spinners be trying to develop their pace bowling because the batsmen don't like that?
It seems a stupid argument here...

Yeah a stupid argument there. And since Kapil played football for a club, why dont other cricketers play football. That's a similarly stupid argument.
But not what we were discussing so far. I think there is a genuine possibility that such a bowler can be of immense use to his team, depending on how well he is able to do both. Also, for the nth time, it's rather strange that nobody is trying it. hmm and to think that Warne's mystery ball was considered a possibility reverse swing has become commonplace (when people would have sworn a ball bowled the way it is, cannot swing in the direction it does), bowlers developed the doosra, etc. etc.

And what was the first part about- "I don't think...styles"??

BTW since we've started to use Sachin as an example (which was NOT intended ) he uses different styles in the same over. You'd see legbreak, legbreak, offbreak, legbreak, googly, offbreak. He prefers to bowl legbreaks to righthanders and offbreaks to lefties, but changes it around too. It's not that batsmen cannot tell which way his wrist goes. He can still cause problems when he's bowling well. Someone doing just this, a special bowler, should be able to do this better for all his time will be spent in honing what Sachin obviously has.
Like I said, he's turned the ball more than Warne in some matches, and done pretty well bowling offspin too - in the same match.

If there is a change in style evry over then wouldnt it be the same as what you are talking about.

If there's a change in styles every over, you'd effectively have a leggie and an offie bowling. How good that is depends on the situation.

 

[Top_Cat]

I think that your main argument is simply that you've not seen any great bowler doing this successfully. If Murali manages to increase his repertoire even further, then yours and Sunil's arguments will fall apart. For my side of the debate, it's sufficient for me to say that it is eminently possible that some good leggie also bowls a few offbreaks and controls both the way he wants to. There's no real reason why he cannot do it bowling offspin to batsmen who dont like that kind of delivery. A right arm leggie would want to try to do that against Saurav Ganguly for instance..

Whoa, hang on. We're not talking about just throwing in an offie for some variation. We're talking about someone being able to bowl both successfully so that against certain batsmen they might bowl one or the other at Test level. In my opinion, I doubt anyone could physically be able to bowl leg-spin at a high level and then bowl off-spin the same. I just think it's impossible. I wait for someone to prove me wrong and be able to do both effectively but I doubt I'll see it.

Imagine what a professional bowler with Sachin's mindset can do. If Sachin as a batsman (not even an allrounder) do this and take a five-for against Australia (wickets were Beven, S.Waugh, Lehmann, Tom Moody, Martyn- not bad players of spin huh?) think what a professional spinner can achieve.

It's not as much about mindset as you think. It's about technique and I don't reckon someone can technically bowl both without losing some of their wicket-taking ability.

 

[Kimbo]

well... i dunno.
i am just as effective bowling to a leftie as a right handed batsman... i dont see a problem.
i think this argument is going nowhere. obviously there is no way you can convince me that there is a great advantage if bowlers can bowl multiple styles. and i can't convince you either so i think we should stop.
i have thrown every argument i have at you, and vice versa.

 

[Paid The Umpire]

He should do whatever he feels like, tell him to try and bowl a change up bowl every three or four balls (in the nets).

 

[Neil Pickup]

Off Topic!

F_L We have an Off-Topic section for things like that!

I've moved that Question there. Stick to Chinamen here..

 

[royGilchrist]

F_L We have an Off-Topic section for things like that!

What are you referring to Neil?

 

[aussie_beater]

Originally posted by Neil Pickup
F_L We have an Off-Topic section for things like that!

I've moved that Question there. Stick to Chinamen here..

What off-topic ? This ain't no off topic.

 

[full_length]

Neil was talking about the question on QWERTY keyboards that has now been relegated to the "off topics" section.
I posed it here initially..